Reliable Membership: The Essay
© 2001 Al Turtle
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This material I developed over several years as I pondered, examined, experienced, and resolved the issue of reliable connection. It came together in its present form in 2001.
Principle:
All humans require reliable, sufficient and not excessive, contact with other humans.
This is an absolute biological, genetic requirement for children under 8 years of age and it is also serious requirement after that age. Older humans can live alone, but in what I call a “degraded condition.” This seems to be an idea that you can “take to the bank.” It seems that reliable. I believe this is a function of our middle brains, the limbic system, as it appears in mammals as the desire to not be left alone, the desire to be included, the herd instinct. I recall in the book, the Horse Whisperer, how young wild horses on the prairie would be given the choice of submission to the lead mare’s wishes or being driven away from the herd. They would always choose submission or “joining up.”
Sometimes the need to be together can be overridden by the experience of unpleasant connections. Hermits are built by repeated history unpleasantness when they tried to connect. They need connection – but not that kind.
The Connection Continuum
Childhood is not all one way or the other. I find the best way to express my experience of this basic rule is to speak of a continuum. At one end is absolute unreliability or insufficiency of connection. At the other is absolute excessive connection. People can find their place along this line – some higher, some lower. As we grow, we sometimes move up and down the continuum.
A: Clingers: Some people receive Unreliable or Insufficient Contact in childhood.
This causes PANIC!!
When an organism experiences too little or intermittent connection, its old reactive, reptilian brain activates. I call this Panic. As children, these people survive by developing CLINGING skills. These are behaviors of hanging on, standing close, resisting being distanced. And as these children grow, when they can walk, they develop PURSUING skills. These are just ambulatory, walking clinging skills. These behaviors involve following, moving toward, and chasing. A Clinging/Pursuing child doesn’t want to be put down, and runs out of the house and after their parents when left with a baby sitter.
These same skills of clinging and pursuing, driven by PANIC, become habits and follow the child into adulthood. Attention getting may become a life-style.
Reactive Behavior
When these adults panic, they move toward others, especially their partner. They ask questions, follow, push toward, talk at, and in general become invasive of their partner’s space. As an adult, clinging may become very controlling, possessing, captivating, cornering and interrogating acts. This is the source of stalking behavior.
Symptom
This is your pattern if you often frequently think of, or fear, your partner leaving you behind.
Focus
When nervous, you will focus on your partner’s evasiveness, withdrawal, silence. You may also have day or night dreams of safe togetherness – of finally living happily forever.
B: Avoiders: Others people received Excessive or Unpleasant Contact in childhood.
This causes PANIC!!
When an organism experiences too much or painful contact, the old reactive, reptilian brain activates. Again this is Panic. Children who experience this develop AVOIDING skills. These are behaviors that do not invite contact. Even when hungry these children don’t cry. We often call the “good babies,” but really they are happier when left alone. As these children grow, when they can walk, they develop ISOLATING skills. These are just ambulatory or walking skills of avoiding. Isolating involves having hiding places, wandering off, climbing trees and not coming down, running away, sitting at the far end of the room, being very aware of exits, etc.
These same skills of avoiding and isolating, driven by PANIC, become habits and follow the child into adulthood. Withdrawing may become a life-style.
Reactive Behavior
When these adults panic, they move away from others, especially their partner. They are quiet, self-contained, elusive, non-talkative, and in general, often emotionally cold.
Symptom
This is your pattern if your mind often goes blank when your partner talks, asks, or moves toward you.
Focus
When nervous, you will focus on your partner’s invasiveness, attacking, pushing, and you may dream of peace, quiet and space.
Where are you?
Take a moment to find the place on this continuum that fits you. We are all somewhere along this line at any moment. Over a lifetime you may change position. Usually in partnership one will be higher on the line and one lower. This seems critically and often disastrously true for perhaps 80% of the couples I have seen. Are you the higher one or the lower one? How about your parents? Where did you see them to be?
I make the high Clingers to be 90 or 95 and the low Avoiders 5 or 10 When I started to look at this problem, I saw myself as 80 and my partner as 35. I was comfortable with what I call about 80 units-of-contact. If my partner gave me more than 80, I would panic and start to pull away – avoiding. If my partner gave me much less than 80, I would panic and start to chase her. Now my partner was content with about 35 units-of-contact. If I gave her 35, she would be happy. If I gave her more, she would panic and start to withdraw. On the odd occasion that I gave her less than 35 units-of-contact, she would start to move toward me.
I also find that over a period of time people may change their position and even reverse sides. Thus I prefer to speak of Clinging rather than of Clingers, of Avoiding rather than Avoiders.
Note: One fun image is that when people go out in public to find a partner, dating, at that moment they are all clinging – wanting more reliable connection. After you meet a person and become close, after a while, one will switch to avoiding.
Clingers Fall in Love with Avoiders; Avoiders marry Clingers
The primary reason we select our partner has to do with familiarity. Our partner “feels” familiar to us.
I, a clinging kind of guy, am attracted to a partner who tends to avoid – of course. The simple reason is because she is familiar. She is like the caretakers I had as a kid who were often unreliable and not available enough. I recognize that behavior.
My partner, an avoiding kind of gal, is attracted to me, of course. The simple reason is because she has been familiar with my type of excessive person since early in life. I have many of the traits similar to her overwhelming and intrusive caretakers. She “recognized” me on the first date.
Falling in love tends to set this situation up. (Again and again and again.)
The problem
When a Clinging person gets nervous, they tend to move toward their partner in order to reduce their growing panic. The Avoiding partner sees someone coming and, starting to panic, they move away. The Clinger sees their partner moving away, and moves faster. The Avoider now runs faster from the clinging person, who is now “chasing” them. The two run toward what I call the Leaving Wall, the wall at the edge of the relationship – the Divorce Wall.
Now this could start the other way. When an Avoider gets nervous, they tend to pull back and head for some quiet space. The Clinging partner sees their partner move away and, starting to panic, they start to hold on or follow. The Avoiding partner feels the holding on and, further panicking, withdraws more frantically, firmly.
The two run toward that Leaving Wall, the Divorce Wall.
These scenarios get played out over and over with no conscious effort, but usually a lot of panic. And they always move toward that Leaving Wall. In my experience, this situation is a crisis problem in probably 85% of the couples I have seen. It is almost always one of the two main crises for people who come to my website via the article “What to do when he/she leaves you.”
A Clinger/Pursuer’s View (the clinging partner)
From my point of view, as a Clinger, the Leaving Wall scares me. It is a place of fear. Whenever my partner said, “I’m out of here; or “I can’t take this any longer;” or she was just gone a little longer than I expected, or she was quiet, I would start worrying. My worry always had more or less panic within it. I visualized her divorcing me, leaving me, having an affair, dying, etc. etc. The Leaving Wall scared me. I did all sorts of things to protect myself from “her going over that Leaving Wall.” All of my efforts were temporary fixes. But sadly, all my efforts seemed to push her away.
An Avoider/Isolator’s View (the withdrawing partner)
From my partner’s point of view, as an avoider, the Leaving Wall was a safe haven. Sure she would act with panic, but she did not fear the Leaving Wall. What scared her was the lack of what I call the Space Wall. Space Wall was that place she could get behind to take a break from me. Kahil Gibran said, “Let there be spaces in your togetherness.” It was the lack of Space Wallthat frightened my partner. Without that Space Wall, the only safety for her was the Leaving Wall, (which, of course, scared me).
Oh, by the way, Avoiders/Isolators often seen contact as a conflict!
Solution:The Wall Within
The Space Wall protects my partner (the avoiding partner), not so much from me, but from her historically valid experiences of too much contact. It also does protect her from me. Simultaneously it protects me (the clinging partner) from that dreaded Leaving Wall. It she has plenty of Space Wall, she does not need to go toward the Leaving Wall. Hooray!!! And so The Space Wall is the “Wall that Al built.” It worked.
The simple solution is that I, the clinging partner, build and maintain a Space Wall that is reliable to me and to my partner.
Advice for the Clinging Partner
Learn to enthusiastically create, and support your partner’s need for the Space Wall. This will reduce their need to move toward the Leaving Wall – Divorce Wall. Give them the “benefits of leaving while they are with you.”
Learn to be happy when on your own and learn to switch to the on-your-own mode quickly.
Good News
You can live with the Space Wall. You can live alone! Not well, but you are designed for it.
Bad News
Your partner cannot live without the Space Wall! Without a strong, readily available Space Wall, they have to use the Leaving Wall. You have to take primary care of your own neediness. You might as well consider yourself “insatiable”. But you can live with it.
Also, I want you to be clear that this topic is the only one in relationship skills were the solution seems one-sided. It seems unfair. And I think it is unfair (check out my paper on this). But I’d rather have a solution that is somewhat unfair than have no solution at all.
Whoever is the Clinger at any time, that is the one who has to do the primary work. This is because the Isolator’s defensive posture usually contains paralysis, often a drop in blood pressure in their cortex, that makes them unable to act at all. They just Freeze.
Sorry about this.
LEARN TO USE THE SWITCH
Giving your partner the Space Wall, and you really have to get good at this, (see my paper on The Testicle Principle) does not take care of your need for connection. You have to take care of that, yourself. This is what I learned, and what follows is how I solved my need for connection when my partner was not available.
Here’s the Situation
Boy, am I needy. I came to realize that I am very needy. I came out of my childhood needing lots and lots of attention. I can look back and hear voices of people complaining about how needy I was. When I finally began to understand this, I decided that I needed about 1500 love units per day. This was not my fault. This excess neediness was my parent’s business, but that’s all past now. Now it is my problem. So here I am needing lots and lots of love units each day.
My partner, not so much. My wife came out of her childhood with a very limited ability to produce love units. Her maximum on a good day is 50 love units. Oh, she can work lots and accomplish many many things, but when it comes to love units – not much. This isn’t her fault. This limited capacity was her parent’s business. But now it is her problem — and my problem, too, because I have been trying to get my needed 1500 love units out of a 50 love unit source for years.
Now What!
So I looked at this situation and looked for my options.
- My wife had the best love units available. She just didn’t have many of them. I wanted every one of her capacity.
- I can live alone. True, I am kind of degraded when alone, but I can do it. In fact when I travel for business I take care of myself pretty well.
- There are lots of love units in the world. I get love from cats, dogs, horses, friends, TV, music, radio talkshows, clients, audiences – wow, there are many sources! Still, among all these sources, my wife has by far the best quality love units – just not many.
My Fix: The Solutions in three Steps.
And thus here is what I did, and I did it right in front of my partner.
- I improved my ability to live alone. I looked at my time alone and started to do a better job. I noticed that when I had lived alone, between my marriages, that I often did pretty well. I noticed that when I traveled for business I often did pretty well. I just was not in the habit of doing well when I was near my partner. So I practiced doing better. E.g. When I traveled, I always had a good book available. So, I learned to have a good book available at home also.
- I improved my ability to get love units from other sources in the world. But, and this is a big but, never did I draw on a source that would threaten my partner. Remember, she had the best LU’s in town. I didn’t want to ruin my chances of getting them. So, for me, this meant that I could get love units from any person or any group as long as they weren’t single females. I built up a network of friends. I joined volunteer organizations. I gave presentations. I kept up with my pets.
- I developed a super-fast switch. This was a skill to be able to shift from my partner as a source, to my living-along-skills, to my friends, and back quickly. If I was with my friends and my partner had some to share, I would drop my friends and head home. If I was with my partner and she suddenly seemed to want quiet time, I would grab a book and start reading.
The Benefits of the Fix
I was stunned by the benefits of doing this. I mentioned that I did it in front of my partner. My partner seemed relieved that I was doing it. She actively supported me. She told me about having so often felt a “failure” that she could not meet my needs. She began to relax around me and……..her output of love units began to increase. At this point, quite a few years since I started this plan, she can produce probably 500 love units without difficulty. Wow! And they are those highest quality love units!
Now, they are still not as many as I want, but I found out something else. It was the reliability that made all the difference, not the number of love units. My panic was much more driven by the fear that my sources would be cut off. And now I, with my Superfast Switch, was taking care of the reliability. My supply became just fine. My strategy met my need for reliable and sufficient contact and met my partner’s need for not-excessive contact. Cool!
Advice to the Avoiding Partner
Learn to firmly and gently make the Space Wall, yourself. Learn to anticipate your own needs for quiet, and signal your partner when those needs are coming up. Learn to take “time outs.” Tend to your partner’s need for reliability by showing that your Space Wall is not a Leaving Wall. Always refer to your returning when you start to move away.
Good News
You get the quiet space you need.
Bad News
You have to develop Relationship Responsibility. You can’t blame your partner for your need for space. You have to come back.
LEARN THE GENTLE ART OF “TIME OUTS”
Also Check out my articles on What to do when he/she won’t talk and the Testicle Principle.
Hello Al,
This is a very interesting article. I can’t quite decide which end of the continuum I fall on. While I think I’m the Clinger, I also know that I completely withdraw when I panic. When I get into a conflict with my s/o, often times I prefer withdrawing/ending the relationship over arguing, for which reason I’m called cold-hearted often. Does this make me the Avoider? I do not, however, feel the need for personal space, and find myself feeling really needy at times, and that’s when I feel like I’m invading his Space Wall…which turns me into the Clinger? I’m definitely the Confused one, since I can’t figure it out… I don’t think you can be both?
Well, hello “confused,” Nope you can be both. And you can switch. In a given relationship things tend to become more stable with one more to one end and the other to the other end. But you sure can switch. And as you learn to deal with the problem, the switching can become more frequent but less a problem.
The principle is the same, though. Whoever is the Clinger is the one at that point who can and “should” act. Whoever is that Avoider at that point gets a break from responsibility. Remember the goal is to stay out of this problem, this panic situation, by keeping the peace and solving your problems before the Clinger/Avoider dynamic gets going.
Hi Al! It is a truly blessing that I have stumbled upon your website. I have been taking notes and have come to realize a lot of faults in myself.
My boyfriend of four years broke up with me a week ago. We had a minor argument which I now see was majorly caused because I am a level 100 clinger. I never put things into perspective like this. And I can now see how my partner tried to tell me this so many times but I failed to listen.
I want to be better. I love him with all my heart and would take his 5 love units over a million other love units that I need. The problem now is that he will not speak to me. He lives only a mile away from me and I find it so hard to not get in my car and drive to him. For five days straight after the break up I was pushing and pushing for him to talk to me. As embarrassing as this is, I have to admit that called of 50 times and must have sent at least 30 messages in just one day. He did not respond to any of them. I am now on day three of not making any attempt to communicate with him. I am deadly afraid that he will never choose to speak to me again. Please, I need some advise on how to initiate him to talk to me. I am working on patience now and it is not easy but I am willing to do whatever it takes. I just don’t know how long I should wait and when I contact him what I can say so that he will respond. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you for this website!
Karen R.
Hello Karen, and welcome to the wild world of the Clinger. I recognize it. It’s very familiar. I often teach that while Clinger/Avoider dynamics are just one of the problems that couples face, it by itself can destroy a relationship easily. Fortunately you’ve discovered my notes (articles) on how this works and what to do about it. I don’t think the situation you describe is anywhere near too late. Heck, it’s only been a week since the 50 calls in a day or the 30 text messages. Good news.
The really good news is this Clinger Avoider dynamic is so simple, reliable, predictable, fixable – with effort. And while I’ve worked with it for 20 years or so, I’ve come to rejoice when the Clinger is the one who contacts me. I firmly believe that only the Clinger can do the essential foundational work of repair.
In fact, your letter caused a lengthy fun discussion with my wife this morning. She was/is the Avoider; I the Clinger. She got into proposing, from this point of view 20 years later, what clever things “she could have done on her own to fix the problem”, all things which she acknowledged that at the time she Could Not Have Done.
So to my mind, don’t even rely on your Avoider to lift a finger to solve this. And yet be glad that you can fix this without needing his cooperation. Hooray.
Your job is to convert yourself from a panicky, out-of-control, needy clinger, into a reliable relaxed avoider-space-providing clinger who also is pretty good at self care. Remember you need those 500 love units while he can only provide 5. Got to get good at getting your 495 love units some how.
Oh and don’t hide this from him. Take a look at the contact plan in my article called “When To Fold ‘Em“. It works here. Plan on one 5 sentence note to him once a week and be ready to stretch yourself into months of doing this. Probably won’t need it.
Good luck. Glad you posted your question. I taught this subject on Wednesday to a whole bunch of Marriage and Family Therapists. Fun class.
Al, thank you so much for such a prompt response. You are such a blessing. I’m really taking your expert advice to heart. I feel a million times better than I did before visiting your site and reading through your articles. There is so much great information that it’s overwhelming to read it all at once. But I’m taking notes and working little by little. No matter I know that I am coming out of this a better person and I can’t thank you enough for it. You are awesome!
Thank you for your website. 2 weeks ago my partner of 11 years sent me an email to say his feelings had changed and that while he loved me and wanted me to be a part of his life, he hadn’t loved me as a husband in two years. He had been going to therapy and hoping the love would come back- but it never did. He said he has been trying to break up but just couldn’t because I was so good to him. Thing is- I wasn’t. He was constantly feeling pain and guilt for not being good enough for me- for always disappointing me. When I would get upset, he would say sorry and try to do something sweet to make me feel better. And most of the time I was getting mad over silly things- for example, being late because he needed to go care for his grandmother when the caretaker didn’t show up. I have been selfish, jealous, critical and demanding of him for years. Of course he stopped loving me and wants to leave. This articles has made me realize that I am a Clinger- I am very needy. He is an Avoider. Since the break up email he doesn’t want to talk to me: he did initially- we had a long chat about what he was feeling: he said he was confused and needed time. I proclaimed my undying love and asked for a second chance. He asked for time to think- Well, I thought I was giving him time- but I’d send him a text to say i love you, or a romantic card. He didn’t reply to any. He did reply on my dad’s birthday to say he knew it was a hard day for me (my dad died recently) but the next day he emailed me to say he couldn’t do this any more. It was over- if he came back to me it would be over guilt not love- that he had been hurt too many times, thought about killing himself too many times- that now he just given up because it was just too difficult for us to be together. He said he didn’t know if this would be forever- but for now- he needed to be alone to take time for himself and to erase the memories of wanting to kill himself. I sent one more long preachy email begging him to stay: appealing to our religious faith, our history. etc. I haven’t heard from him since- nor have I made contact to him- that’s been a week. I did it all wrong:
Now I fear I have lost him forever. I can’t bear that: I know I can live alone…. But I want a life with him: that’s the commitment I made 11 years ago and I still want that. We share so much in common, and he truly is the kindest, gentlest, most generous person I know. I screwed the best thing in my life up. Please tell me there is hope to get him back. I have been reading about no contact- but it doesn’t feel right to me. I want to be honest with him- not manipulative. I also want to tell him that he was right to end that old relationship between us, because it was not life-giving and it was causing so much pain- that I am working on my issues and since we care about each other still (he said he does) and share so much in common and have many great memories, I think it would be a shame not to try to build a new kind of relationship with each other. But I don’t know how to do that.
Thanks for your insights and information.
Jim
Yes, Jim, it would be sad if you can’t put this together. And what’s going on sound so similar to what people who come to my website write about all the time. The advice is here.
One special feature is your partner’s chatting about “killing himself.” This, to me, is a very special kind of attention getter. Kind of like having someone walking into a dinner meeting, pulling out a .45 automatic and running the slide. Get’s everyone’s attention. The phrase you wrote was “thought about killing himself too many times.” Just how many is too many? Wow. Me thinks 1 is enough.
The rest painful but normal. Us clingers come in two groups: those who don’t know they are clinging and those who do know. The first group often also doesn’t know or have much contact with the inner world of their partners. The unknowing ones are often quite blind and emphatically untrained. I run into these people often at that point where they are starting to learn. And I salute them. The “knowing group of clingers” are cool. They’re just adding lots of specific skills to their repertoire. Tis their job, I believe, to make sure that people around them find it easy to be NOT-overwhelmed. Go for it. Learn as as fast as you can. Sounds like he’s worth it and so are you.
Hi Al,
I am incredibly heart broken at the moment. My partner/boyfriend/common-law husband of 15 years recently left me after we moved to a new city together. We’ve been together for a long time and have been through so much together.
I left the country for a month for work and before I did, I felt like (for the last year or so) I’ve been really serious about taking our relationship to the next level of commitment, but he always seems a bit spooked by it. Right before I left I said (and this comes from many people using the expression, “it’s time he Sh*ts or gets off the pot” and so I start thinking about this, like yeah, wait a minute and before I left the country said, “if you don’t want to be with me let me go so that I can find somebody who does.” Which I am sure felt like an ultimatum and all I wanted was the reassurance that he DID want to be with me – that backfired! I want to have a family and I am in my mid 30s so it’s time if I am going to do it.
Long story short, when I came back he told me he had moved some of his stuff to our old location, a state away. I was shocked because he didn’t even tell me what was going on for him.
I feel communication is our biggest issue and my issues of trust – so in reading your thing about clingers and avoiders, I’m a clinger and he’s an avoider.
Then we had a nice next 2 days, then out of the blue he tells me that he’s leaving and he’s been thinking about it for a while (news to me!!!) He just turned 40, by being in this new town, he is living somewhere where he doesn’t know anyone, and is unemployed. He definitely seemed out of sorts (a chronic workaholic without work), but said that he has his doubts about us and just can’t figure it out and where his hesitancy about us having a future together comes from.
So I say okay, you go, I mean, I can’t stop him so what else do I do? So he just leaves me the next day in what was supposed to be our new life together. He takes one of the dogs and just goes.
We’ve been in some contact and our conversations have been good. He says he still loves me and that he just wants to find clarity and why he runs away (flight instead of fight) and that he’s grateful that I said I would be patient with him, but he can’t guarantee that he’ll want the relationship, but he does love me. Obviously this is very difficult for me. I don’t want to break up. I’m delighted to do work on me and my trust issues for our relationship, I’m delighted that he’s seeking counseling himself after all these years of not working on himself.
I’d like to do couples counseling but he just seems that he really wants the space to do his own work right now. I decided to try not contacting him and see where it goes, but then I read your article on when he/she leaves and now I feel confused. He told me that it’s okay for me to feel hopeful, but why? What if I am just thrown right back to square one, so I am trying to prepare myself for moving on.
How much is too little contact? do you think there is hope? I mean, I just was feeling too crazy worrying about what he was thinking and decided that I can’t control anyone else and that i need my dignity and the more i go towards him the more i probably make him doubt us. so i am pulling back but i don’t want to do too much and just lose him. He ran away to his comfort zone because he REALLY REALLY likes to be comfortable.
Any ideas on how to best handle myself. Obviously hard to say without out all the details, but if you know clingers (and I am also a communicator) and avoiders (he’s not much of a communicator) what would your advice to me be for the meantime? I know I need to work on myself right now, but in terms of contact with him, any ideas?
Thanks so much!
As an addendum: I should also say there were conversations around fulfillment and lack there of or fear of us not fulfilling each other. I think I would be fulfilled if we could deepen our relationship through communication, the stonewalling kills me.
i also need to be more patient and hear him, but it’s hard to trust him when I always feel that he’s on the edge of running from a conflict, such as he just did. He completely fed my deepest fear (short of it being for someone else.) I do want the commitment with him and to know that I can count on him communicating to me instead of running away. There’s our dynamics and then something that is going on inside of him – so those two combined make for dicey waters!
I just want to be with him and create a more intimate relationship, rebuild communication and establish a foundation of trust, but I am worried that it might not be “worth the work” to him. I think it is, but that’s me, I’d like to dig in there and do the work, honor our relationship by pursuing that growth.
I know what I need but he hasn’t been able to really articulate his needs to me or in a way that I haven’t been able to hear them. I’d like to start learning how to hear/listen to him to avoid it. I want to do the work! But how can I without a chance?
Oh, please give me a reply, I’ll appreciate so much – I like reading your replies. What a great site to have stumbled upon via “when he/she leaves you!” Ugh, so so sad over here…
I’m not sure about the topic of “fulfillment.” It sounds a bit abstract. I don’t think you are referring to Purpose, as in my Biological Dream. My guess is you are referring to “meeting each other’s needs.”
He is running from conflict. Of course. My wife once said, “Avoiders see contact as conflict.” I doubt you have a clear idea of how threatening you appear to him. I didn’t. Your job is to make the contact with you always safe for him. Got to make yourself a source of safety. It takes time.
Sandra also love the sign, “I don’t know how to say it right. So let me say it wrong, first, and then let’s clean it up later.” This is all about encouraging your partner to share without any criticism and to dump his thoughts into a space of understanding, PreValidation and eventually reliable validation.
One thing I learned to say was, “If you ever figure this out (his needs etc) I’d be glad to hear them. In the meantime let’s have lunch.” Anything that communicates your impatience to him won’t be useful.
Good luck.
I mean, do you think there is any hope here. Is it just too much work and does it sound like the work defies all the positive aspects of being in a relationship? I mean, I am pretty communicative, but I am working on being more patient and validating and i did often react out of fear in the past because i lacked trust, trust in that he fully loved and was committed to me. So that’s my work. However, i just can’t tell if it’s just too much damage and do I throw in the towel? otherwise, i do think that there are many wonderful and positive aspects of our relationship, but there is no doubt that I need to get a) more committment b) more communication c) my needs met d) build intimacy. I want to hear his needs, that would be nice. We were engaged, informally. I had a ring and all that, but I could just hear his heels dragging. I am not really caught up on the marriage part, but the commitment yes. I just want some security that he’s committed to the work. I am asking myself, what am I fighting for? I do want a relationship and I do believe I want one with him, but i feel rejected by my best friend. Please, if you could reflect back to me a bit that would be good – then I am going for counseling next week. thanks
Yup, Hopi. Tis quite a decision. Is it worth it? When I started, I wondered the same thing. But then I evaluated all the choices. Out of that effort came my Map of Relationship. A “great relationship” is worth it – worth lots and lots. I believe we all, humans, fall in love with the dream of a great relationship. The mistake we are taught is that such a relationship is “magically” automatic. It isn’t. It is a lot of hard work learning. Each time we try a relationship we struggle and thus discover how much we need to learn. One foolish thing we are taught is that with the “right” person it will be easy. The opposite is true. With the right person it is more work, sooner. There is no way without the lots and lots of work. Long ago we found out that the “right” person is an amazing “worst nightmare.” The “right” person (and if you’ve been dating for 15 years the selection process is pretty good) will drive you nuts until you learn what you have to learn.
Of course you can give up the relationship and live alone, but that’s a bummer.
This guy sounds like a really reasonable person, a match, to do your work with. Of course you can give him up, go out and find another who may be even more difficult. That’s your call. I believe it is generally easier to learn and work with the one you have than to find a new one, who might be worse.
I’m can’t tell you what to do. I can wish you well.
Al, thanks so much! One last question – read your paper on “to be safe you must share.” I rarely feel safe because he really operates in the outer circle (thus running away), where I WANT the inner circle of sharing. I know that I also need to change my communication behaviors, but my question is this: since he’s an avoider and a whole state away – is it okay to send him articles like “to be safe you must share” or is this seen as a threat?thanks for all your help and wishing me well. Last time we spoke, he agreed to couples counseling. I just rarely, so rarely know what’s going on in his head!
Hello Hopi, The simple answer is “no.” I’m a clinger and want to teach/share with my partner all the time. Bad idea. Share that you have learned and are learning. Learn to share one sentence per concept you’ve learned. Let your partner ask and then give them a link. Make them work for it. Don’t try to teach. Just my advice.
Even through this process of limiting contact, I am the one that always has to reach out to him. Do I just stop and see if he reaches out to me or do I continue to ask him for a time to speak by phone? We agreed to speak every 2-3 days, but I haven’t heard from him in 4-5 days and I am always the one to ask for the conversation, so I just stopped contacting him. Ideas from my fellow “clinger?” I also think his way of leaving was really extreme and signifies a freak out. My fear is that while I was away and he was here stewing over the “ultimatum”, he was already starting the process of letting me go and now he is just trying to continue to move through that but that his love for me is hanging him up, when really, he doesn’t want to move forward and have a future with me. He did agree to go to couples counseling the last time we spoke, but wants a few more sessions with his counselor first. I just don’t know what to do, do I just leave him alone and let him come to me or do I just keep asking for a conversation every once and awhile. I feel like this is a game and I am not sure a) how to play and b) if I want to be with someone where I have to treat him with a kid glove! Ideas?
Perhaps your answer is in the article that follows this one. Called the Testicle Principle it covers the logic of why the Clinger, you/me, does the work and how great that is for the Clinger.
Hi Al,
I am actually having some good talks and luck with this guy – I’ve been reading all your articles and taking your advice. The Testicle Principal is an interesting one and I’ve applied its logic with good results from yesterday’s discussion with him. However, I will say that I feel that I’m being a bit untrue to myself in handling him with kid gloves. The truth stands that he walked out on me and ran away and really isn’t suffering any consequences for it. What if he just does this again, down the line – when does anyone know that they have a reliable member among their team? I told him that I can’t do this again – reengage in the relationship – if we can’t find a way for him to feel comfortable letting me in and telling me what’s really going on inside his head from time to time. Anyway, I don’t know, I don’t want to chase him off by saying that I still have anger that he ran away, but it seems a bit like a pushover to not really mention how horrible it is/was for me. Does this fall into the power struggle? He’s back in his comfort zone where there aren’t threats of having to start a life in a new place, I mean, that’s a real challenge. He was the one that said we should move here and then decided it was too hard and took off! Seems a bit unfair to me….
Wouldn’t life be simpler is the “truth” was so simple. I don’t know if “he walked out on him” or “you drove him away,” or something else. In general I don’t think it’s a good idea to let him off the hook completely. Part of growing up seems to be feeling the pain at times. And I think you have to sometimes help your partner “feel the pain” consequences of their decisions. This business of Clinger/Avoider (Reliable Membership) just seems the one instance where it is easy to determine who does the “first” work.
I think you should tell him how painful it was for you – and then get to work making sure you don’t have to have that kind of pain again.
Yeah, this is very normal for the Power Struggle.
I don’t understand what you mean by the “comfort zone.” My experience of avoiders is that they don’t have a comfort zone. Lots and lots of things make them quite uncomfortable.
Oh and if you find yourself arguing over what is “fair,” well….. start again. I’ve come to believe life ain’t very fair, but a loving couple can produce a lot of it.
Keep agoing.
What is your opinion on compatiblity? i think my partner who is trying to determine if he really wants to be done with the relationship or whether his leaving was out of fear of moving into the future with me comes from our relationship issues or something deep inside him or both. He’s often wondered if we’re compatible – how do we even know if we are compatible if its muttled by out personal issues and the personal work we need to do? I have trust issues, he’s not even able to give me a reason for leaving. I’m really trying here Al, I’m giving this my all, but I’m just taking this huge risk in waiting for this guy to decide if he’s in or out. If he’s an avoider what’s safe to ask? I don’t even know what I’m doing anymore!!! There isn’t a lack of love but I think he can’t tell if it feels right to him…
Well, Hopi, you asked. Taking a look at my Map of Relationships, my experience with the Imago, and the number of couples I’ve seen, my view is that an ideal partner is uniquely incompatible. I believe that if you want a partner who is like you, then you won’t fall for them. It is the magnificent differences and the skills that make being different safe, that makes for a powerful long lasting relationship.
In the power struggle people often talk about the “problems” caused by the differences. But from my point of view the real problems are brought about by the cultural delusions that people should be in agreement. Probably only 4-6 % of marriages are fully alive, and that means that those who are moving toward Vintage Love are weird – not average. Example: while Sandra and I have not argued for maybe 20 years, we also haven’t agreed on anything in that time. (Sometimes/often we come close.)
So, Hopi, what keeps you from loving a man who either doesn’t know at the moment why he is leaving or doesn’t feel safe to tell you what he thinks? He’s got good and great reasons, even if he doesn’t yet know what they are or doesn’t dare tell you. Learn to create and maintain a safe environment for a person who currently puzzled by their own behavior or who is currently showing that he doesn’t feel safe to share with you.
At this point, I don’t think that dreamy-romantic-love thing has anything to do with what is going on. That period, Romantic Love, is long gone. I think you two are at the Choice Point. I encourage you to go for Door #1, what I call the University of Life.
Good luck.
Hi again Al 🙂
I have been reading, listening and just studying all things Al Turtle lately! Sounds like what us clingers do when we are faced with the leaving of our partners!
To this comment you made:
“So, Hopi, what keeps you from loving a man who either doesn’t know at the moment why he is leaving or doesn’t feel safe to tell you what he thinks? He’s got good and great reasons, even if he doesn’t yet know what they are or doesn’t dare tell you. Learn to create and maintain a safe environment for a person who currently puzzled by their own behavior or who is currently showing that he doesn’t feel safe to share with you.”
I have this comment/question:
So in taking the testicle principal to heart, I think we’re making some good headway even though he is geographically so far away (we only talk about 2x/wk.) However, he still doesn’t know what the outcome will be once he does some internal searching as to why he ran and why he has doubts. I don’t want to force my new found information on him – although he is open to learning more about what I have been learning. We did have a great conversation regarding honesty and how important it is and I think my work around trust and believing that he loves me will be important if we move forward. How do people get over the fact that their partner “abandoned them” during a difficult time in life? I don’t want resentments.
Also how do I maintain the “safe” environment for him, the puzzled one? I think we are where we are because a) he must feel unsafe to share with me and b) I DIDN’T feel safe to share with him because I was always afraid he would run away – how do we navigate this, assuming he continues to be interested in discussions with me?
How will I know when I should give up waiting for this person – the know when to fold em? Do people really come back after all these ups and downs? Sometimes I think I should cut my losses but the stubborn, tenacious voice in my head says “NO, NOT YET!!!!”
I think I truly want this relationship if it can turn into something more fulfilling and intimate where there is trust and open communication. Neither of us want Door #2 (that situation was killing me!)
It’s like tick tock tick tock tick tock!!!!! day by day….
Dear Hopi, since you are having chats with him 2x/wk, I am not sure what you are impatient about. That’s quite a bit of contact after a separation. Learn to talk well during those times, be curious and gentle. Seek more data, gently, on what he thinks are the problems and challenges to having a long term great relationship. (LOOK FOR THE NEGATIVE. It’s the really valuable stuff.) Use that data to direct your learning about him and how to continue to become a partner. At this point, don’t seek to change him. Let him do that in your presence. Keep all conversations to you talk 20% or less and he talke 80% or more.
Keep hunting, gently for what you do/have done that makes him feel unsafe. Learn the Lizard and look for Fleeing, Freezing, Submitting, and Fighting behavior in either of you. Take that behavior as a signal of “unsafety”. Don’t push.
I am not sure what you are waiting for. Little breakthroughs, increasing sharing, may be all you get for quite a while.
I’m waiting to see if this will ever be a relationship again before I move on, that’s what I am waiting for! Are you thinking that this will be like months, years, I mean I don’t know if I can wait for a long time in limbo – doesn’t feel like the best thing to do at this juncture with the biological clock ticking…
Do you ever work with couples these days?
Of course you have a point. The work is hard. The two factors for hanging in there are a) you see “reasonable” movement in your partner and b) you can stand the slowness of it. I can’t tell you what is “reasonable” movement. Two contacts a week are pretty good for bringing about reasonable movement. Remember, you earned this, and of course it’s real important what you do during those contacts. AND I can’t tell you what you can handle – how much strategic distance you can stand.
If you determine it’s too much for you, go find someone else to start again with and work with. That’s what the Map of Relationships is all about. (Someone called it the Tao of Relationships, yesterday.) My belief is that Mr. Right will drive you nuts — until learn your lessons. You’re doing your best.
Good luck.
Oh. I don’t have an office anymore. I do have some couples who chat with me. I teach classes to couples.
What do you mean I earned this? Aren’t some people just afraid of commitment? I suppose having doubts, the doubts may be just around our interaction. I don’t know what’s going on with him because I think he’s trying to get access to the bottom of the iceberg in order to find out. I can’t quicken his access, I just want and hope for him to see that we are a possibility. He’s expressed that part if him wants the relationship, so I’m going off of that. What might movement look like? I’m usually the one to reach out. Is it seeing each other? Going to counseling together? I want a commitment so bad. I want safety to know that he’s not gonna leave again. I dont want to do it with anyone else, but as you say, people are disobedient. Thanks Al.
Geesh Al, I am in a complete panic mode! All of sudden he isn’t communicating back. I am confused because when others/friends share their advice or experience with me, often people make it sound like “holding onto hope” isn’t a good idea. I feel like I read doubt and despair in their faces – like they are thinking “oh god, this is so over.” I hold onto to every little sign as hope and I find myself very susceptible to opinions and advice of others, getting confused by it. When i dig down inside myself – I know that I want to do this work with this person, but what if it doesn’t move fast enough or we are moving at different rates etc? Also what about the distance? I will have to go there or he will have to come here in finding the time and opportunity to do the relationship counseling. perhaps that brings up another power struggle and i want to handle this appropriately and lovingly and kindly. This feeling out of control and holding onto hope, I mean, do you have clients come out of this where the relationship goes on and both feel good in it?
We have expressed the following to each other:
there is a part of us that still wants this relationship
there is love, both a romantic and family/friendship love
communication is an issue that we need to address and work on
personal issues contribute to our relationship issues
we recently shared positive memories of our time together
we want and are committing to being honest about our feelings with one another
Also, he said that I should still have hope
Can you please help me around the concept of hope and waiting? I know I keep asking about this, but I am trying to understand the process before I give up on this person. I think I am having anxiety/fear because good friends of ours recently divorced and tried to work at it together and failed. Their relationship was different than ours, but still, it makes me think that for my partner, it’s all going to feel easier to do on his own.
Dear Hopi, I feel for you and remember my days, weeks, repetitive panic – all about being left or being left out or being left behind. Awful awful. I was just wanting something tiny, a token, a guarantee. I hear you asking for that same spark of hope. I can just share what I’ve gone through and what I’ve learned. You are on the scene and have lots more data.
Lots of couples I have seen have gone through much worse. Some didn’t make it, together. Some did. And I remember the context that probably some 90%+ don’t make it. If you ask your “friends,” most of them didn’t make it or aren’t on the path of making it. That’s, they are often, not much help.
But some do. I just wanted to be among the group that did – what I’ve called the 4%. Everything I’ve written is about the journey into that 4% and the steps you have to take. Lots of work and determination and stubbornness was helpful.
Sorry I don’t have any guarantees. Living so far away from each other is a big challenge. Lots of online couples start that way and then shift (by moving closer) to working on intimacy up close. Being in the Power Struggle while being separated is even a bigger challenge. One specific challenge is around communication. Much easier (still not easy) to learn when you are closer. Needs a lot of practice.
I wouldn’t feel bad if you stopped trying, cuz this is hard. (I would be sad.) That’s up to you. Do let him know you are thinking of that, not to push or manipulate him, but to simply respect your commitment to being honest.
Thanks Al. I take your words of wisdom seriously and with much appreciation. That’s the thing about giving someone space. I have to grant him the space and time that he is requesting or rather, I choose to grant him that while I ask for times to connect in return. If we make movement towards good communication and connection, then I would hope we could move towards closer geographical proximity. I think by being somewhere without work, with a career gap and few friends that he won’t want to return here. So I am a bit confused about that piece of compromise. Every direction looks daunting, nothing looks lightweight, or easy. I just look at Door #1 and Door #3 and think, shit 🙁 I want him to take my hand and say, let’s go for Door #1 and give out our damn best shot, even if we stumble, I’m here! There goes the fantasy world again…
I know, so many people just give up. But why? Self esteem, lack of hope, inability to change or work? I find it so perplexing. Sigh.
Well, now that you are getting closer to the situation, I can be slightly more clear. You have to develop the habits of ensuring that he doesn’t get overwhelmed in your presence. He may not be far along enough to request the “space” he needs. I suggest you define space as any stuff that goes on in his close environment that relaxes his need for space in a connection. If he feels or acts overwhelmed, there is too much connection going on. Remember he does need connection, just no where near as much as you. At least that’s my understanding. This is a great situation for you to learn “from him” all about managing the levels of contact in people around you. Most people seem unaware that this is going on in everyone all the time. I think it is fascinating to “be in on the know” and watch people moving toward each other or moving away.
Oh, yeah. Wouldn’t that dream of Romantic Love be great! I used to think of it as walking hand in hand in a field of bright flowers together forever. That dream is so wonderful. The reality of it is also really great – just means lots of learning/growing up.
I think most people give up pursuing Vintage Love cuz they get discouraged, eventually deciding the dream, the Biological Dream, is impossible. Very sad. I believe they are really, tragically wrong.
Well Al, he doesn’t know what he wants but he said he wants to do counseling. He did say he wants to see me in counseling not outside it at this point. He’s perhaps afraid of flooding. I’m holding onto hope, but the Internet is a scary place. I’m in the space of looking at everything I’ve done wrong. I told him I’m working to ID blind spots. But I feel sad thinking of all the ways I mishandled by frustrations. I listened to your podcast on it. I feel like a monster, but I have to remember that he has his things too. He thought I would want to get into therapy and start pointing fingers which is not where I’m at. How can I keep the hope and stop the doubt creeping in. Al, is the hope ok? Is it a pitfall?
Don’t know anyway to get rid of the doubt. It comes and goes. Though I can read lots of good signs. For example, being sad about how “awful” you were is a sign that you have already learn some good stuff. No way to move forward and learn more wise things, without coming to grip with the older, what I sometimes call “dummer”, behaviors.
Hope, well, you are asking a pretty severe optimist. Somewhere I wrote the positive thought, “Do it! Either it will work out, or you’ll learn something. Either way you win.”
Al, you have been so solid. I so appreciate you being there, in the cyberspace helping me limp through this pain. I feel strange and swing between dispair, denial, and hope and determination! I’ve been a reliable member on this page, that’s for sure! It doesn’t feel like I’m winning anything, it feels like I’m losing everything, teetering on the edge. I’m concerned that he may not see my growth, hopefully he will. So much fear, so much doubt, our traps. I really love and admire him. I fear my determination is just prolonging the inevitable end. When this happens in a relationship, what does the getting away – with doubts – and wanting space and time represent in these scenarios? He’s hopeless, he’s scared, fed up? That 5:1 ratio that gottman speaks of, how do we know where we even register? I have lots of positive memories but they are punctuated by flare ups around fears. Oh my heart….
As an addendum, I also am sad that my fear and uncertainty became his and I feel like I sabotaged it because I couldn’t trust. Do couples improve and learn and grow to trust, is there a way for me to demonstrate my commitment towards trusting the love after all this? I look back and think of how sad I am that I doubted this great guy, but it’s scary, maybe I always had a sense he’d leave?
Here I am again, quick question. If I feel like I am making a lot of realizations about things I did that were tough on the relationship, how much do I share with him and how so it doesn’t seem like I’m groveling? I see what I’ve been blind to and I want him to know change and growth are possible, but my fear is its too late and the damage is done. But there is still so much love and goodness there. Can we come back or will he always wonder if ill default. Oh god, I really know how amazing he is and it’s so out of my control 🙁
When he left, he told me that I was an amazing person and that I deserved someone who would give me the commitment and future that I wanted. But having come to your site, I feel like I’ve gotten the perspective of how I must have chased him off(?)
Damage repair, reconciliation? Do they happen and does it take a long time?
Dear Hopi, your thinking sounds so much the way I used to think, a clinger, bright, lots of thoughts, and focused on that other person to the exclusion of other topics and people. That’s what I learned to be as I grew up. It led to lots of troubles with partner because I didn’t know how to relate to a real person, just to a dream/fantasy/construct of a person. Over time the situation with my partner forced me to learn to relate to who she actually was and was becoming. I have no control over her, never did. And glad of it. She’s herself, whom I get to meet every day.
My suggestion is that you focus on meeting lots of secondary people, friends that you can talk deeply with, be in contact with thenm while you are taking your mind off your partner. Let him reappear in your life when he chooses and be prepared to not “devour him” ever again. It happens all the time all over the USofA as Clingers wise up.
Ok, so do think it would be decent to say something – being completely genuine – like this? ” I really love you and would love to work together and work this through. You take the time you need and I’ll be here working on me. I hope we can come back together and do the counseling and find our way back to each other.” I really believe in us but think we need support to change these patterns. My fear is he’ll conclude he’s better off without me and that thought makes me feel crazy because I look at these articles and all this imago/gottman relationship stuff and think, man, we got this! We can do this, all that love and admiration is still there. If we do come back together, I’ll eventually want 100% membership though. Please can you advise with regards to how I say such a thing without being pushy? Right now I feel like I’ll wait for this man til the end of my days. I have never been able to give up on this relationship. I’m like a pitbull 😉 any wording advice? I’ve been an avoider before with men who have been clingy and I’m trying to remember how it felt. Did you mean that that reconciliation happens all the time when clingers wise up? That last line in your previous message confused me a bit. For now I’m hopeful with a permanent knot in my stomach!!!! Thanks Al!!!!
Wonder how much of your “pitbullishness” is visible to him or in his memory. Lizard driven pitbulls are scary. You can use that stubbornness to discipline your self to write/speak non-pushing things and in non-pushy ways. Avoid messages longer than 4 sentences. Share your self, but don’t make promises to do more than “your best.” I would share “love” very lightly. And don’t use the “we” word. “I want us to be best buds, forever” is ok. “I know we can do it!” is really poor.
I mean that when clingers wise up, then moving toward a better relationship is possible. If you don’t wise up, it can’t happen. But there are “No guarantees”. (Clingers seem to really want guarantees.)
Good luck. Use your Pitbull to keep your Lizard relaxed – out of panic. Don’t let that Pitbull join with your panicked Lizard.
Hi Al,
So we have had some counseling now and the only reason that comes out so far is that he felt he had to leave the relationship because my insecurity and self esteem issues just became too difficult and made him unhappy (now that’s not verbatim, but that is what I heard.) As well as watching me with my mother and that dynamic too uncomfortable and doesn’t want to repeat it – he didn’t like it and doesn’t want it with his kids. It basically feels like all the blame is falling on me. I understand those points and I am working on the esteem piece, but I am trying really hard to feel hopeful when his energy seems so full of hopelessness and doubt and reluctance and basically not believing that I can or that I have changed. I feel completely pigeon-holed by him. I am trying to keep hope and see where the other sessions lead. I didn’t blame him back, I tried to remain quiet and listen. I don’t know if I did well. I just feel like he’s so uncomfortable with emotions and he has so many fears around me being the “insecure fearful one” that it’s easier to put it all on me why he just can’t “do this” anymore. Do you think being unemployed, 40 years old and faced with marriage and kids with a women he is scared of turning into her mother is a hopeless situation? I can’t gauge what to do or feel or how to navigate this. I do believe that there is enough love there to work on things. There is chemistry and love but I feel like he can’t see that things could change and take that risk for a bit to really maybe date me and see if things feel different. Any ideas here?
He did say that somewhere there is a deep fear inside and he doesn’t know what that’s about, but i reckon its all of his family stuff and fears around his own issues. it’s always easier to blame someone else. I feel like it’s the power struggle again and again. I’m always the weak one.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts around this. Also, I am worried that the counselor may not be the right fit, but I am not sure what he is doing or where he is going with this – what his mediation role is. I would like to do some imago stuff. Maybe we should do a phone session with you?
Hopi – hoping to not move towards hopelessness…
Keep going, Hopi. Glad you have some professional working with you. Bring your observations to that person. AND I don’t like idea that “all the blame is falling on me.” Don’t like that at all. I still see you playing around with “right and wrong” or “correct or incorrect”. Very Master/Slave sounding. Keep reading my stuff and incorporating it. Good luck.
Hi Al,
Thanks. Yes, the following session (after the first one which was not so nice and he later said did make him feel a bit hopeless) I felt like he didn’t do any blaming and that there was more introspection around his family/childhood piece of the puzzle – still working on identifying his fears and what caused him to leave. I made it clear that I am not here to be angry or blame and that is not my intention or where my heart is at – he then relaxed and said that he would be willing to see me outside of counseling. I have been reading more and more of your website, it’s one of the only places that helps to calm me down and feel a sense of “control” over my actions and perceptions, meaning I can make healthier decisions/behaviors etc. I am still so nervous. I don’t know at what stage I can ask him if this is going towards an opportunity to get back together and practice being different and breaking those patterns as I know it will take time and dedication to doing things differently. We are still in two different states and I am here temporarily in the same state trying because I want to work on the relationship. I am working on patience – I am being patient – but I feel that things are moving slowly, but I don’t want to push him but my heart still breaks everyday when I wake up and know that I have to face another day of not knowing of loneliness, grief, and panic. My question is at what point can I start to explore the “getting back together” idea? I want to do this work with him and i feel that we need to do some of this work together – to practice to see if we are capable of doing it without resentment and so on. I do really want the end product to be an ongoing relationship founded on love, trust, growth and honesty. I don’t know how long it takes – I don’t know if he’s in the “self-realization” process having just turned 40 yrs old. I do think that he has deep fears about this commitment that need to be explored and resolved before we can really consider ourselves in this fully. I just don’t know how to live in this uncertainty or how to behave. I still reread your article on it takes two to divorce and one to lead…in order to stay motivated to keep going, but then all the “what if” thoughts come pouring in and I get really panicked again. The good signs are that he 1. still wants to continue the couples counseling 2. is willing to spend time with me outside of counseling 3. still has a look of love in his eye 4. is talking to me. But there are no guarantees and I start to wonder if he’s just hoping that we can have a friendship. Honestly, a friendship will not be possible at this time – as much as I would want that in the future when have both healed – I am still far too in love for a friendship that doesn’t have a romantic relationship as part of the deal. I know you don’t know this person – and yes, I am asking this out of desperation to some degree – but how often do you really see people pulling out of these sorts of situations and coming back together, stronger? Also, what sorts of things should I NOT say in order to scare him off or make him feel too pressured. I feel like I want to be honest, but I am also trying to be very limited in my amount of sharing as to not fall into the pattern of over sharing everything on my mind. I am being restrained and for the most part honest. If I wanted to be really honest, I would say that I really love you and want this to work. Is there any hope in this? Which I have already asked like 20 times, so I don’t know how to get myself any more confidence in the process. If he doesn’t want this, I just a soon make the break and forge ahead knowing what I know now than invest in him any further. I don’t really mean that, but I feel like I am so vulnerable waiting for him to agree that the relationship is worth it. Turtle, any wisdom on this?
Yes, Hopi, I see lots of people who work through this and come out stronger. I’ve met many, most, who didn’t work through it. I guess that makes is normal. All who made it to Vintage Love went through this. I guess that makes it “the rule.” Still sounds just like the normal Power Struggle.
I am reminded of the power of panic and how much your Lizard (Safety) hates chaos and uncertainty. The solution is to create structure for yourself that doesn’t include the uncertain behavior of another person. The practical solution is to “turn inside” rather than “outside” for certainty. When you ask him for certainty, you are kind of hanging yourself out there. True in all relationships. I think we are all designed to shift from relying on others, to building partnerships of trust and mutual support. Some of the “lessons” I’ve used to help myself are like “All humans are disobedient. Learn to live with it.” If I plan on this my Lizard is not so shocked when people don’t do what I want.
I suggest you build the friendship you have with the goal of being longterm partners. I’m not sure what you mean by a “romantic relationship.” My guess is that you are beyond that. Of course if you want a relationship of generosity, playfulness, some cool drama, well you can build that. The old “romance” is based on being a bit blind/delusional, I fear. Once you’ve learned some about each other, you can’t go back to being “blind.”
Hah. ‘”Is there any hope in this?” Asked it 20 times!’ It’s MasterTalk! You’re asking him to be your god and to promise facts! He can’t do it. No one can. But you want it very much. You want him to agree(?!) that “THE” relationship, the one you dream about, is worth it to him. Hell, all he can do is pretend to agree. And if he don’t pretend to agree you’ll pull away and quit!? Ouch. We can get into these messes.
I think you are on the best path available. As you visit with him, occasionally bring up the thought of living together, but, but, but, be ready to hear and validate the “why’s” in his resistance. That’s what you can focus on fixing.
Good luck.
Al, you said …”As you visit with him, occasionally bring up the thought of living together, but, but, but, be ready to hear and validate the “why’s” in his resistance. That’s what you can focus on fixing.” You really think it would be wise to suggest living together after he walked out on me 2 months ago? I think I will get shut down by his fear. Maybe I am pushing someone too hard that just doesn’t want the same things. He’s showing up, he’s willing to start this work, but I can tell the “long-haul” might prove too intimidating for him. I feel like protecting myself and pulling away, but at the same time want to see if it can work out, but I feel stuck like I am going to make all the sacrifice by moving away from where I am living now and putting my eggs in one basket for no real commitment or security that this person wants to do the work for as long as it takes. At what point does he know that this is worth being together for – you say that I am using Master Talk, but what do I say?…’let me give up my life somewhere on the risk that you might want to do this based on our friendship, but if you don’t where’s his sacrifice? He’s safe in his community with his friends and his work and his life here. Does this make sense, what I am saying here? When I say romantic relationship, I mean that he’s not just a friend because my goal is to be in a committed monogamous relationship. I have lots of friends, but a partner is different than a friend, it’s a best friend and a romantic relationship – perhaps we are getting hung up on semantics? When does the risk become too one-sided to be healthy? I have to sacrifice to be in the same geographical place as him so that we can actually do the work. I don’t think moving in together is anything that he would want to embark on right now because he’s too afraid that the old patterns will return unchecked. I suggested that maybe we approach it as if we are starting afresh…trying new things. I feel that he is looking for validation in the relationship’s failure, perhaps to validate his leaving the way he did or to get out of the work. I do feel a bit that I am putting my life on hold for this and I don’t know if it’s healthy. I don’t feel that I can just seamlessly come back to this community that we lived before and integrate. I feel like it’s more his community and all the friends we had, we shared. I think I also have shame around being left and that the relationship isn’t working – I think I have a complex that people didn’t think we would make it and aren’t surprised that we are split up. This last year we had taken this grand adventure to embark on a new life together, something I thought we had committed to and then without communicating about his fears or reservations about this new, uncomfortable and uncertain existence, he left without much explanation. Now all I know is that something wasn’t working, but I am only willing to take 50% of the credit for this aspect. I just don’t want to start to resent him/the situation because I feel that I am putting in so much work and perhaps want it more than him. Does this seem a dangerous and slippery slope? So if I turn inwards to find that reassurance, what about the distance piece of this situation? I’m confused on how to proceed.
Al, I should also mention that I have been reading around on perfectionism and it feels like “being perfect, right, successful, in control” and all those things play a role in our dynamics. I feel that it has made it hard to achieve intimacy because he wouldn’t really open up about his personal fears, inadequacies, insecurities, and disappointments. Seemed he always had to be above that, in control and strong. If he would get sad about it, he would normally get kind of moody and retreat from me (things unrelated to us, even.) How do you deal with these issues in your practice? I feel that it has really hurt our ability to communicate – receive and give feedback about needs etc – and build intimacy because my requests have been seen from the perspective that I am saying he’s flawed or at fault and he really doesn’t like that. I am sure that I have responded that way to his observations too and of course there is something in the way it is conveyed, but I think we are both really sensitive to criticism because we think it means we are ultimately flawed. Like if he sees where he has ‘failed’ in the relationship, he gets fatalistic about it. I would rather just own and accept our shortcomings and work on them. Would you suggest your “frustrations” article? Thanks Al!
Well, Hopi, Perfectionism seems a crippling problem in a relationship – until solved. I was going to ask who is the perfectionist, but then in my experience, perfectionists marry perfectionists.
By the way, I more casually refer to them as controllers. My wife and I certainly were/are controllers. Wrote a short article on it. “Are you a Controller? Sure.” I believe controllers are created at around age 3. And they really know a lot about suffering, for they are “fear based” with very active Lizards. They relax when they are / things are “right” or “congruent” with some completely inaccurate standard. This is, of course, impossible or at best extremely temporary. I say “inaccurate” but that word doesn’t come close to how “dumb” are the standards I have tried to follow. When two people come together, they always have different sets of standards and seem to drive each other crazy.
Then the problem you mention seems that of learning, which includes being comfortable with making mistakes in the past. Wrote a little article on this – the Three Drawer Tool Box. Sounds as if your partner (and probably you) need some Drawer #2 tools.
Hi Al, well, I went to these articles that you suggested and read them – I think, twice already! I am not sure, it seems that the perfectionist piece from him is not so much about clean and orderly but about better and best ways of doing something – his way (I have this same issue around communication and communicating love – it comes out in the form of expectations about how these feelings should be communicated etc.) I think he really tried to relax around the little things about house maintenance and so on, but that when it comes to the emotional sphere, is when he feels very uncomfortable and criticized. I do notice little things that are funny to me, like his getting very upset around efficiency and inefficiencies or the uncomfortable feeling of being somewhere new and not knowing how to get around, geographical orientation is very important to him and he’ll get very frustrated if he makes a mistake. As for the relationship, he’s afraid that what if we try again and we don’t succeed, then he’ll put me through all of this emotional pain again. This power dynamic is killing me. It feels like I want it more than him and that hurts or his fears of it not working are very strong. He keeps making comments like “this is heavy stuff” and it seems that his perspective is that this work is just going to be too much and what if we fail and geeze, from my stand point, I know there were problems but it’s like all of a sudden our relationship was so miserable – so miserable it was better to run away from it. I feel that there are/were many loving and positive things about our relationship, but we lacked open, intimate sharing, which was a product of both of our fears and lack of “safety.” I’ll own that 50% of mine. I guess I just don’t feel like these issues are make it or break it issues. What is a deal breaker though is not having emotional intimacy. I don’t think I want to live without that, but everything else is just practice/awareness/communication. Any advice for showing this attitude rather than just talking about it? Sometimes I think he believes that these problems are just too big and insurmountable, but I don’t think that they are…ideas?
Sorry to take so long to respond, Hopi. I’ve been focused elsewhere. I am sure it doesn’t help much but you are describing the all too normal pain of the Power Struggle with you being a Clinger. You’ve been together 15 years which might be a long time for a marriage, but you’re “dating” and that can slow the relationship process own quite a bit. I’m sorry, but living together without the “token solidity” of marriage often makes things go slower and with much more pain. Yes, it hurts a lot. So no wonder you tried the “sh*t or get off the pot” routine. That sometimes works and more often when there is the solid wall of marriage/divorce in the wings. It makes sense that it backfired. Avoiders like the lack of commitment. Clingers hate it usually.
But anyway, what to do? I think that probably the first issue is the strongly exaggerated Clinger Avoider dynamic. You’re going to have to fix that, but at least you are the Clinger so that is more hopeful. Next because you’ve been at it so long, you’ll have to work on your lousy communication that has enhanced the Clinger/Avoider issues. I don’t know if you think of yourself as a poor communicator, but this is a situation where your have to simultaneous train a poor communicator (Avoider) to communicate as well as manage your side of the street. Avoiders typically have never learned to share their feelings since early childhood. So it is remedial work. When he says he wants clarity, that’s a good sign. The challenge for him is that clarity comes from learning more about himself. Your job becomes assisting him to learn about himself. You do that by a) being safe, b) encouraging him to share even poorly (Art of Pulling), and c) rewarding him for sharing anything (attention, mirroring validation etc.). Lots of stuff to learn, like not finishing his sentences and coming across patiently interested.
In the meantime you have to take care of yourself so that you don’t panic or freak too much. It’s a long project but worth it and certainly doable.
Let’s speak of “too little contact.” If you are a clinger, like me, anything less than 4 hours per day of relationship chatter is too little. If you are an avoider, too little may be 10 minutes per week. Anything more may be too much at this point. If those numbers were “true” you have to give him no more than 9 minutes of relaxed contact per week for, oh, 8 months. To do that you have to do some very serious self-care and outreach toward your community.
While you need to work “on” yourself now, remember to work “for” yourself, too.
Good luck.
Al, thanks for the site. I just discovered it today and I must say this particular article and “What to do when he/she won’t talk to you” reads like you’re writing about me and my fiance. I’m certainly the needy one who harbors fears of abandonment and betrayal. She’s definitely the avoided. I get the safe space and the need to be alone, but what if the space is only space from me, that she seeks out other company. That’s not space to be alone, that’s space to gain attention from others.
What I’ve noticed, is that when speaking in her native language (one I don’t understand), she seems to have much more to say. In fact, she seems to be able to rattle on for an hour (something we struggle with). Clearly, she’s not avoiding all, just me. I think she has her own fear of abandonment but … hey, I’m speculating, she doesn’t talk about herself or her feelings in anyway.
She seems to love to be bathed in “my feelings”, but share she will not!
In the past, when she was supposed to be soooooo in love with me, she went ghost on a business trip and returned talking about the man she went with and his views on all this intimate stuff. I think she came back half in love and to be truthful, it almost caused me to leave her and to this day still bothers me tremendously when I think about it (yes, gaslighting was used). In short, I think she craves male approval (she’s 46).
My biggest problem is, I’m not getting the “feeling” of her valuing this relationship for me because of the lack of communication. I often miss her when she’s right beside me. The only connection we have is physical. I feel sometimes like a mannequin rather than her man (just a putz that will marry her at this age which she wants very much, some cultural pressure, some convenience).
My question is (assuming my perceptions are accurate) is how do I draw this woman in to trust me enough to finally open up?
I’ve posted this question on various sites, but have not had any responses. It seems if there is no affair, there is no interest.
Thanks in advance if you can get to this posting,
M
I have lots of questions so that I could be more helpful. What I have so far:. Seems the you’ve been together some time but not long. I gather you notice she talks to other people much more freely than with you. She has a different native language which you don’t speak. You are a clinger. You want to know what to do to draw her to you. (Well, for sure.) I’m sure there is more to this story.
I have a couple of thoughts. People don’t share cuz they don’t feel safe to do so. Period. She’s not sharing with you strongly suggest something is pretty scary for her when she approaches you. You want to know what that is (those things are) and get rid of them. Read this to get a better idea.
Consider learning her language asap. That will take some time, but give you safe things to talk about and to get a more clear idea if she is “Into you at all.” (Or you are really into her.)
Grab the ideas of the Map of Relationship, to figure out where you are and what your options are.
Get back to me with further thoughts.
I read the ‘Read this’ initially, I have read some of the communication tips before but there were insights…
So, you only asked the one question so I’ll answer it (or at least my perception) … I would have to say that we’re in the power struggle stage. It actually began about 6 months ago (when she moved in to my house). We had been dating (and doing sleep overs – 5 nights per week) for a year before that. I assumed that it was she had finally got me to commit and the challenge was over … again, who knows, she doesn’t talk about her feelings or herself for that matter. The passion blinked out of our relationship at that time. I’m referring to only in the sexual context as … did I mention she doesn’t talk about intimate things? So, the frequency was still there, but she stopped … “trying” to … well have an orgasm. it became pity sex as I saw it. She went from 80% having one, to 0. When confronted, she of course evaded the question with an answer that might have been fine … for a different question. Sigh. Why does one assume that I can not see the evasion. Yep, i think that was when we were entering the power struggle stage, or rather she was. A fine needoid such as me doesn’t get there so quickly. Thing is, we don’t fight, or argue over silly things, but lately I’ve been getting rather fed up. The speculation I’m most comfortable with, is that the love making was getting a touch too intimate and she had to pull back. Likely so, she won’t kiss with tongue either.
Sorry, rambling, clearly I’m frustrated.
Bit about us, I’m 5 years older, great shape, look 5+ years younger, well established, and very much a desirable person to have at a party, gathering … guess I am quite a catch (even though I feel like an imposter). I’m very emotionally intelligent, but also creative and paranoid (yep, you know where I’m going with this). That said, I’ve not always been this way. I’ve lived comfortably with my previous wife for years while she trotted the globe by herself. Cheated on me twice, but enough talk and predictability was rescued that i was able to trust again (I don’t think i could recover betrayal again with any woman).
She, she’s pretty, in a small kind of way (I’m a foot taller), almost a six figure salary (mine is much more), emanates warmth, but as you try to get get close, you hit a wall just behind the physical (smile, eye contact …). My friends have noticed this about her too. I cannot say for sure if she’s frightened to talk with just me or any love interest. She got 20 years of her life wasted after she was divorced by 3 men (boyfriends, one after another) who seemed to want just a sex toy / slave. I’m the first to propose. She once told me that all those 3 relationships were very good. I found out from a friend or two of hers is that they were anything but. She was taken advantage of every time (she is a tad gullible – if I was a jerk (or my younger self), I might have taken advantage of it).
Just before I move on, when I say she can’t talk about herself, I mean it it the strictest sense. I have never heard about her childhood, her high school, her relationship with any. We seem to talk only about food, wine and travel. If I ask her why, she just answers she doesn’t know what to say. Personally, I find this hard to deal with and resent it. I think at light speed so I don’t understand such things.
Another thing is, we are also quite similar in some regards. We both want this marriage. We both hate being single. We both enjoy high contact (her just physical). We are both content with being “joined at the hip” since virtually when we met.
So, my feeling of state … I think about giving up. If I can’t keep her flame burning, and I don’t have words as my ally, it’s just a matter of time that a player will push the right buttons and make her heart beat fast. I’m supposed to be getting married in 4 months.
What I want is for the woman to be able to talk to me. I would love the chance to help he.
Falling asleep, likely most will after reading this winefest.
M
Dear Mark, Thanks for giving me so much more than in your first posting. As you may have figured out when I look at a couple, I am trying to focus on the stuff they are doing that is leading to the troubles they have. Sometimes that seems like a Sherlock Holmes operation. The more clues the better. The principles I apply are always to find the “50% of the situation that you, the writer, are 100% responsible for.” These are those things that you would be overlooking and that need to be addressed as quickly as you can to avoid the relationship falling apart further. I remember the foolish tendency is to focus on the things your partner needs to change.
But here you’ve given me so many clues that I am not sure where to start. Probably we should chat on the phone. Your call.
As a fellow clinger, my eyes were drawn to one issue as the hottest. “If I ask her why, she just answers she doesn’t know what to say. Personally, I find this hard to deal with and resent it. I think at light speed so I don’t understand such things.” To avoid the end of this relationship and to move toward more closeness you’ve got to overcome her growing tendency to see you as a hopeless case, a guy with huge defects who will never change. That’s the normal situation in the Power Struggle – the movement toward hopelessness. This is at the same time the core of the Power Struggle, the core of the Choice Point (Door #1, #2, #3) and the easiest thing to fix. You’ve certainly identified communication between you as a problem, but don’t seem to have much insight into the details of your 50% of the communication problems that you have to take 100% responsibility for.
In this area I am focusing upon, the question is why doesn’t she answer a “why” question and part of the answer is around your response. My guess is that you, like most clingers, come across impatient in a stifling way. Your fast brain is a wonder and can be a problem in communication. Probably been this way since you were a teen or before. I’m glad you are the age you are so that you have so much historical material to look back on when identifying your 50%. My further guess is from the second part of that line – your response to her very normal, sensible behavior – she says, “I don’t know what to say.” You seem to miss how to deal with this response, as if she’s defective in that sensible behavior, and then turn it into something to resent. As if she “should” be someone other than she is. So my guesses are you have some way to go in building empathy, a challenge with control (right/wrong), come across as more or less intolerably pushy, demanding and critical. Perhaps also pretty self-centered.
Pretty normal stuff for a Clinger. All that can be fixed. Bright clingers often have a lot of troubles and I think the two of you have pretty high IQs. Not always helpful, I can tell you.
Thanks again Al.
I’ve just reread my last post. No more tablet posts for me!
I think I’ve given you the wrong impression about the state of our relationship. She is nowhere near thinking I’m a hopeless case or a guy with huge defects. I’m not short with her at all and am not always drilling her for information. There have been a couple talks where I’ve assured her that I’m not going to check out, make her feel small, shut her down, ignore her opinion. She was quite touched by it actually. When she replies “I don’t know what to say”, or “I don’t know”, I don’t press her. That won’t work. I agree with you that she is scared of something, but it certainly isn’t me. I’m very gentle with her.
What I’m trying to do is try to understand …
a) how can I help her to trust me enough to open up.
b) will she ever open up and can I handle that.
c) how does she really feel about me (she’s quite attentive, physically loving).
d) if she does not open up will I be able to deal with my emotional needs not being met for the rest of my days?
I’m 99% sure that leaving me is not even considered. She’s happy as can be. In fact, I’m under the impression if she senses I’m a little sad about something, she almost rushes the wedding tasks, increasing my commitment. I think she’s pretty nervous of me running (it has happened to her 3 times in the past after all).
Regarding her place in the power struggle….
The only thing I’ve noticed is the bedroom passion has died out. It’s still there, but again, I feel it is pity sex. She has never been able to talk. Would only initiate “I love you” by text instead of verbally.
I know it sounds weird, but after 18 months, I have no high school stories? No family dynamic stories? Nothing, nada, zip!
In comparison, my life is an open book and she listens happily, but never a comparison to her own even to keep the conversation going.
I’m understanding what I need to do to maybe draw her out a bit (but it’s not too different from what I already do).
I’m also really looking for hope. I want to feel that I’m not just a handsome, tall paycheck that her family and friends love and compliment her on. Thus allowing her to love herself a little more. Because … that won’t last!
ps: I’m considering the phone call, but I’ll be out of phone range after Saturday for a week.
M
Great Mark, I am so glad you responded so fully. We sure do have some different views of what is going on. And I am clear that you are “on the scene” and thus have lots of more information than I. By the way, I haven’t changed my views except to add a bit about Codependence to the mix, which suggests to me I might want to look around for addictions as another problem area. Not sure where I would look, you, her, her family, your family, etc. I could be wrong, but it doesn’t make much difference cuz the question is what to do.
a) how can I help her to trust me enough to open up. Simple answer is “be a source of safety to her when she talks.” I believe all people are designed to open up, and thus have learned to keep quiet. In her case you clued me into her chatting with other people more than you. I thought this a useful and valuable clue and thus I started looking for what you do, what skills you have, that you can change, which encourage her to continue not sharing. I’ve made some guesses in my letters and now add MasterTalk to the mix. I think MasterTalk is a killer problem.
b) will she ever open up and can I handle that. I not only think we are all designed to open up, but many times it is a matter of health to do so. So, I think she can when she feels reliably safe enough. What’s this business of “can I handle it?” Would people think you as “fragile” and “not tough enough to take it?” A lot of people come across that way. I think that in most adults who appear “fragile” it turns out to be an act. Still it is common reason why people don’t open up – fear of hurting the other.
c) how does she really feel about me (she’s quite attentive, physically loving). I would imagine you want her to feel loving toward you. I repeat my guess is she feels scared of you. I am guessing you are mixing up her attentiveness with love.
d) if she does not open up will I be able to deal with my emotional needs not being met for the rest of my days Great question. My guess is that you could endure, people do, but who the heck wants to. Getting your emotional needs met is important to everyone. The only way I know how to get that done reliably is in a Vintage Love situation. That takes a lot of work.
Good luck.
This is a great comment thread with you and Mark I hope it continues. Lots of great answers and questions.