HomeMain PageRelationshipsSkillsDiversityUsing Al Turtle Logic on Relationship Troubles

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Using Al Turtle Logic on Relationship Troubles — 17 Comments

  1. Hi Al,
    You are a gift from the universe. Thank you for transforming the way I look at relationships and life.
    I had a question. You mention that “it is quite a skill to be available to a partner when they are in pain (and learning), and yet allow the partner to feel the pain fully”.
    Is there an article on the site about this? Where do I learn this skill?
    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  2. I am not saying that long-distance relationships or texting will not work. Heck, anything that you learn from is valuable. I am saying those are just, in my experience, powerful difficulties that rarely seem to be surmountable. Good luck.

  3. Dear PassionPie, (I feel a bit awkward using your email name, but it’s all I have.)
    Thanks for posting your situation and I hope my response will broaden what I have already written a bit for everyone. Seems a tough situation, so let’s see where my mind drifts.
    I see no problem with your age difference.
    First I’ll focus on two issues: long-distance and text-messaging. Long distance relationships seem to be a terrible difficulty. So many of the people who write me or call me are trying to manage with a great deal of distance between them. Perhaps these people commonly use the Internet and thus are people who find my articles. Could be. But anyway, I think of this as an enormous difficulty on top of the normal huge difficulties of making a great relationship. The core of this problem seems to me to be the extremely thin “bandwidth” (amount of data, verbal and non-verbal) that is passing between you, the requirement to dream up interpretations of each other based on this thin data, and the strong tendency to promote both the Romantic Period (based on lack of data) and the Power Struggle (based of attempts to change each other while you are “out of range”).
    And so I see these sad dreamlike relationships where no progress is made, pain is common, and people seem to be “wasting their lives” (hours, weeks, months, years) trying to turn the dream into reality w/o the tools. For me, I tend to see relationship work as beginning AFTER the Romantic Period is dispensed with and AFTER the Power Struggle has fully come to see a waste of time. The quicker this happens, the better, as far as I am concerned. Long-distance relationships often seem to just prolong the pain. I am not trying to discourage you. Just tend to see the long-distance as the equivalent of another fruitless Power Struggle tactic.
    And worse, that same long-distance seems to be a common material of Door #2 of a normal relationship — people claiming to be in relationship while they are really just walking-divorced people staying far away from each other. The vast majority of couples, who come to my office after a lengthy marriage, have arranged a long-distance relationship while at home. They work on different shifts, they work far away from each other, and they are busy – too busy to have time for each other. Their long-distance is a powerful tool for avoiding the complications of intimacy. I have to laugh, in a kind way, when they say they want to come in, but can’t because they cannot find a time when they can be together at my office. I’ve been there and this long-distance tactic doesn’t seem to work.
    Text-messaging seems to have the same effect. If I had my way, anyone who might be in-love or in the fighting-stage would be banned from texting. Again, the bandwidth of communication seems vastly too small for the development of successful intimacy. Texting seems ideally suited for the creation of fantasy intimacy – Romantic Love. “I am in love with the person I dream about when you send me a text message.” Ohh it seems so sad.
    Now let me look again at your email… Ok, here are two problems that seem mostly of the Reliable Membership stuff: a) you cling and she avoids, and b) she switches.
    You cling. That’s two points of view. From your view, you probably panic when she pulls away. Simple principle and it is surely all about me, too. I’ve been a recovering Clinger for years. Doing pretty well, thank you. When you panic in or near her presence, she can see it and react to it. When you are alone, you’re left alone with your panic. Have I got that? Your job is to recognize, validate, forgive and learn from your behavior. Your job is to long-term be comfortable when she backs away – so comfortable that she feels relaxed to back up and pull away in your presence – not from your presence. Her job, were she to chose to do it, is to help you with this lesson by pulling away more and more gently but firmly. One component for you is to create the expectation that she is taking a break, not just leaving you. The difference is just the mention of a length of time – Timeout.
    From her point of view you won’t give her space, haven’t in the past, and probably won’t in the future. The long-distance relationship, the texting, email, etc. all facilitate her getting away. These features could even have been consciously chosen by her. But maybe not.
    The issue of Reliable Membership seems unconsciously a part of human (animal) design. We can be aware of it, plan on it, and manage it, but we can’t avoid it. The issues are a) need for adequate and reliable connection on the one hand and b) need for adequate and reliable space on the other hand. People can and do switch, but generally I find that when a couple is together, it will be clear who is who at that moment – Clinger or Avoider. Understanding these unconscious issues seems to make it easier to be less confused by people’s behavior.
    But you gave another clue in your letter. “became super attentive, 'clingy' and everything i wanted” This doesn’t sound like clingy at all. This sounds like the Master/Slave issue and she might be codependent (Slave). This is a completely different issue. Take a look at the three papers on this (M/S, Passivity, and Foundations) and see if you can’t spot this problem. I think it is common for Avoiders to be Slaves, though they are often Masters and Passive Masters at times. What are you? My suggestion is to root this problem out and move to Friend-Friend.
    Hope this is enough for you to chew on. Good luck.

  4. Hey Al,
    Thank you for taking so much time and effort in replying to the comments and keeping this website. I have been reading through some of the relationshiip advices and tips but i could not understand how it can be effectively applied in my relationship when i'm currently in a long-distance relationship.
    Please bear with me as i share my relationship and i hope that you can help me identify the issues here.
    We are in a relationship of 5 years now, first 3 years of being in the same country but last 2 is a long distant relationship. We are both living in Asia countries. I'm 26 this year and she is 34. I have been reading on and off from your website and i remembered mentioning something like 'the clingy' person. I am the clingy person, and when the 'avoider'(she is), i cant help but feel that whenever i give her the space she wants, she seems to be stretching of how much i can space i can give her and it makes me feel it doesnt work? Example, i know she is a workaholic, when she is at work, she doesnt want to be disturbed, hardly responds to my texts (let alone calls, she sounded so irritated and disturbed by me), so i stopped my texting/calling. So we ended up exchanging a few texts/brief call before bed. If i dont initiate the text/call, that day, we ended up not communicating. Whenever i asked why she didnt contact me, she kept saying i didnt contact her either. Many a time this left me confused! extremely confused. I dont want to feel like i'm throwing myself on her and this scenario changes almost 180 degree when i make short visits to her. She became super attentive, 'clingy' and everything i wanted and (reason why i fell in love with her in the first place) It is hard for me to digest and adjust. Is that her way to cope when we are apart? This makes me confused, which is the real her.. Another scenario is when she's away for business trips, she is 99% not contactable. No text/call a few days before her trips and during the trip. This drive me absolutley nuts! I ended up having to guess what is going through her mind and stuff. What is going on here?
    Traits of me: emotional, willing to do anything for her, my priority..
    Traits of her: want to be in control, workaholic, said since in LD i am not her priority..
    Al, please help me out here, i have thoughts of leaving her, having no contact at all with her breaks me. I tried hardening my heart but i ended up breaking down.
    I'm sorry this is getting long and all, but it's complex for me to break down and identify this problem. How can i make this relationship work for the rest of my life? I know i can never find someone that makes me feel towards her..
    BY the way, i am arrogant and selfish but those traits disappear when i am with her.
    Thank you in advance for reading and hope to hear from you.

  5. Dear Mark,
    I thought I would take a moment and respond to your question about a slave/avoider/conformer leading their partner into Vintage Love.
    Well, I think it possible, not easy, but doable. Actually in a funny way, I think that it paradoxically often happens.
    Here are some thoughts.
    No one is a slave or an avoider or a conformer. People habitually adopt those positions in relationships with others. That is the principle I hold to. We all change. For example, slaves when they argue are trying to become masters. We can all change our reactions and learn something better. The principle is 1% learn, 2% theory, 97% practice. The best practice is in actual situation where the skill is most needed – that is, with the partner.
    The principle of “It takes one to make a marriage….” is that if one person starts to act in ways consistent with the Biological Dream, the partner will be lead to do so also.
    Learn to be a Friend no matter what your partner is doing. If they slip into Master, respond from the Friend position. See my papers on Master/Slave and Power of Passivity for specifics. Practice Practice.
    Learn to use TimeOuts rather than silent withdrawal. Practice Practice.
    Learn to invite, encourage and unleash curiousity and exploration in yourself and in others. Try something new every day, just a little. Practice Practice.
    Get help with the learning and the practice. Perhaps find people to practice with who are easier than your partner. But, practice on your partner. Let your partner know what you are doing. Learn how to say it. “I am doing this because I want a great and happy relationship with you, and I need to learn better skills.”
    The Paradoxical Leadership comment comes from my observations that a partner who is deeply a slave/avoider/conformer becomes, over time, a real pain in the ass to their partner. The Master/Clinger/Rebel wants much more from their relationship, but doesn't have the skills – yet. Their partner “hopeless passivity” often provokes (read “leads”) them to have to learn.
    By the way, I kept those three labels of yours together, not because the belong together, but because you used them. I have seen slaves acting clinging, etc.
    Warmly,
    Al Turtle

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