Noticing the Lizard in yourself and others.
This began as an answer to a question on the Marriage Advocates website. Twas written back in February of 2011.
Quote: I have found that I’m very bad at identifying when other people’s lizard, particularly my partner’s, is triggered. I really need to work on that.
I thought I would start a series on how to recognize the Lizard in action. I actually spend more time with each couple when I teach this than you will find in my paper on Safety and The Lizard. So here goes.
The Lizard is such a simple but elegant part of each of us. If it gets the idea that death is nearby, it responds immediately with Fleeing, Freezing, Submitting or Fighting behaviors.
Sometimes if you look into people’s words, yours or others, you can hear this. “I’ll die if you say that one more time.” “I think I am gonna die if he doesn’t tell me he is coming back.” “Say that and you are dead.” “When she gets mad I think I am dying.” etc. I think the words of the Lizard can show up in dreams, but in dreams images of death often are more related to big changes – which can be a kind of death to the Lizard.
The most common way to recognize a person whose Lizard has taken over is to observe their Fleeing, Freezing, Submitting, or Fighting and to work backward. If these behaviors are present, their Lizard has probably taken over.
Fleeing
I define Fleeing as the visible action of getting away.
In actual reptiles this appears as scurrying across the rocks. In mammals it appears as running through the forest or across the prairie. In humans…. well, these are learned skills.
Now in each person the number of Fleeing behaviors seem pretty limited. The way I think it works is that my Lizard says, “Looks like death, so let’s get out of here,” and then it looks into my cortex, my memories of my life, for a list of applicable Fleeing tactics to choose from.
Let’s pretend that I have 20 Fleeing tactics in my memories. And let’s pretend my wife has 20 Fleeing tactics in hers. Some will probably be pretty darn similar. Some will be unique to me and some unique to her. Generally, I think we learned these tactics during childhood by a) watching others doing them and b) practicing ourselves.
Over time I will get to recognize my partner’s tactics and she will get to note mine. At the same time I will begin recognize mine and she her’s. The task becomes simpler as most people seem to use only a few of their tactics most of the time – their list of favorites.
When I see one of her tactics, I just shift my thinking to say, “Her Lizard thinks she is dying. How do I go about helping her Lizard to feel safe now.”
This is how I teach this in my office. “In humans Fleeing is pretty tricky to recognize sometimes, but it still always involves visibly getting away. Here some ideas.”
Walking away. Hiding behind the newspaper Playing Video Games Lots of time in the bathroom with the door locked Jumping in the car and driving off “I won’t talk about that” Driving home from work, slowly Changing the topic I gotta watch the game Here, you deal with him One gal told me that she would sometimes go to sleep in the middle of her husband’s sentence (only a Lizard can do that) Etc, etc
I turn to partner #1 and say, “So who does most of the fleeing in this relationship?” They will likely say, “I do” or “He/she does.”
I say, “Good, great! Give me an example of what they/you do that is Fleeing.” I mirror what they say. Then “Do you/they flee too?” If they say, “No” I probably say that not everyone uses Fleeing. If they say, “Yes,” then I ask for an example that is different from the one their partner gave. I want two examples of their fleeing tactics if I can get it, both from an observer point of view and the Fleeing partner’s point of view.
Then I turn to partner #2 with the same question and invite them to share something different from what their partner has shared. At this point, if I am lucky, I have heard 4 examples of Fleeing tactics from this relationship. (Remember this may be 4 out of the maybe 40 tactics they have between them.)
If some Fleeing tactic seems pretty dramatic, I may invite the partner who does it to share who they think during their childhood taught them to do that. I believe this is all about demonstrating validation and normalizing panic behaviors.
Then I shift to the one where both seem to agree that the other Flees. I say, “When your partner flees in that way, do you ever, have you ever gone after them – followed them around.” I hope for a “Yes” answer.
Then I say, “Let me share why that following never, ever works. You see, when they are moving away it is cuz their Lizard has decided that you are killing them. That’s enough by itself. And then you start following them! Before Godzilla was near, and now Godzilla is running straight at them. Won’t ever work! but you’ve probably noted that.” I want to introduce Clinger Follower dynamics, into the reality of their relationship.
“Whenever your partner suddenly starts to leave, the only rational thing to do is open the door and help them out. I had to learn you will never get love by chasing a Lizard. I put that sign up in my house for five years to remind me.”
Freezing
I define Freezing as invisibly moving away, imploding rather than exploding – the act of becoming invisible.
In reptiles this seems to be what they do most of the time – they don’t move. That’s why they can be so boring in a zoo. In mammals you see the same thing – they hold still. This is the deer in the headlights. There’s a rule in nature that “if you are not moving, you are not there.” To get away from T-Rex in the original Jurassic Park, the actors held still and he couldn’t see them. The behavior is so Lizardy that a human who is freezing often stops breathing – for a moment.
In humans I think Freezing is often a miricle of art. During childhood we can learn so many different techniques of “laying low.”
When I teach this in a class I often ask for a volunteer to come forward, stand in a chair to demonstrate. Rarely does anyone move. I then wait 5 seconds and say, “Well, I think I have 26 people freezing right now.”
A common example for guys (gals too) can be found in Practical Jokes. Now I believe that a practical joke is a normal little bit of sadism. We do a) something to someone, they b) feel hurt, and we c)laugh. Steps a and b are simple cruel. What makes it sadistic is the laughter. When my wife and I discovered this awareness that Practical Jokes are cruel sadism, we gave this behavior in all its forms up. The most common form is teasing. Guys seem to often do it. Tis just cruel – and sadistic. Not very nice and the Lizard hates it.
But even though teasing is pretty mean stuff, that’s not what makes it Freezing. That occurs when the victim, who is lying on the floor hurting after you pulled their chair out from under them, speaks up and says, “Ow! That hurt!” That’s when you say, “It was just a joke!” or “I was just funnin'” That I think is beautiful [Bleep!]. You were being sadistic and now you are trying to pretend that your cruelty doesn’t exist. Now you are trying to be invisible, I think.
My parents teased their kids all the time. Told us it would strengthen our character. Years later I realized they were often pretty angry people and were expressing their inner rage at their kids. Not too nice.
Anyway I hope you can see how “invisibility” or Freezing works here.
Women (sometimes men) use another typical technique of Freezing. Instead of saying what they want, they ask a question. I come home. My wife has been thinking of going out to dinner for six hours. She really wants it. What comes out of her mouth is, “What do you want to do tonight?” All that eagerness for dinner out is invisible. She still wants it, but she’s layin low. Why? She’s been taught to be polite and to hide herself – to avoid being selfish (or honest). Freezing.
And when she asks that question, my Lizard notices the Freezing and glances around quickly to see the danger. So we both go on the alert. I think a whole pile of “questions” are really just examples of “freezing.”
I turn to partner #1 and say, “Who does most of the Freezing in this relationship?” I try to get two examples from each partner.
I may say, “Remember, if your partner is Freezing, a little part of them, their Lizard, thinks they are about to die.”
And now I might have 8 practical examples of Lizard behavior from this relationship.
At this point, you who are reading might be able to start putting together a list of stuff and marking which is Fleeing and which is Freezing. The most common form of Freezing that I run into is the phrase, “I don’t know.”
Submitting
I see this as the sister-behavior to Freezing. Both are a form of laying low – of lying about yourself for the sake of survival. Freezing seems to me as a movement to be invisible – when that works. “I am not here and you don’t see me.” Submitting, I think, is all about a movement toward invisibility when they see you. “I am here cuz you see me, but I am not a threat. (Or better, “the threat I represent is invisible for the time being.)”
If my partner says a piece of threatening MasterTalk (all MasterTalk is threatening), if I say nothing or just move on to another subject, that I think is Freezing. In the same situation if my partner asks what I think (now I am visible), I say that I agree (in order to avoid conflict). That I believe is Submitting.
In actual reptiles this is their behavior when they are belly up, legs out, not moving. Try it. That same behavior in mammals is seen in dogs or cats lying upside down.
In humans this is a very common behavior. I think it is the core of conformity, obedience, not wanting to make waves, conflict avoidance, etc. I’ve found that agreement is so often a sign of submitting that as a rule of thumb it is best to assume that agreement = submitting. I am sure that people do agree sometimes or at least come close, but the trouble that comes if people submit and agree is so huge that I am very cautious about the word “agree”. You will hear me, for my own survival, asserting that “two people never agree on anything, really.”
Why am I so cautious? Submitting is always a two step process: the actual submit behavior and then the revenge sometime in the future. That revenge step you can see in mammals occasionally. But in humans it is epidemic and I call it Resentment. At the lowest lever Resentment seems just rage, hatred, and movement toward revenge. It seems to be pending warfare. At the highest level I define resentment as the Memory of having been Invalidated, and have a popular article on it and what to do about it. Whatever you call it, it is buried, hidden, and thus really really scary to the Lizard. I think of it as future trouble.
Resentment/revenge seems part and parcel of being human, having a Lizard and having a Cortex that never forgets. If I were just a Lizard, I would submit and forget it. But I am a human and I can’t forget. Therefore in humans I believe Submitting equals Resentment, and there seems no way out of this. And so I firmly believe it is best to avoid agreement so that you can avoid submitting so that you can avoid having to eventually face the resentment.
Any cultural system that is based on submission, conformity and obedience, seems doomed to have to deal with this. For example, some of my Christian friends interpret the Bible so as to create a “culture of agreement”. I think of this, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, as a walking-timebomb. Some interpret that being American means we all agree. I actually think of that as Un-American. And I firmly support those who disagree with me.
One time an old couple put this topic clearly for me. The old guy said, “If two people are agreeing, you know one thing for sure. At least one of them is lying.” Part of the problem of Submitting is that it is profoundly lying. The liar, the submitter, knows what is going on. They also know that their partner, the lied-to person, is in the dark, is in delusion.
Another part of Submitting in humans is blaming others and being irresponsible. But you’ll see this in Topic #3.
I hope you get the idea that Submitting is a huge problem in humans but not so much in reptiles or mammals.
Mind you, I am clear that when a person Submits, it is because their Lizard thinks they are gonna die. But when the Lizard calms down, and in order for the Lizard to calm down, our higher brains have to figure out some way to make it safe to disagree in the open.
“If I am thinking something, and I think this topic will upset you, do you want me to share it anyway or do you want me to keep it a secret and lie about it? This is partially your call. If you want me to share, you’re gonna have to give up getting upset.”
Examples of Submitting (all of which build resentment) Yes, dear. Whatever you want. I have to do that. I agree Saying “I’m Sorry” often Putting on piles of make-up before you go out What did I do wrong? Placating Shoulds I can’t help it I fear this could go on forever.
Fighting
This is, for me, the last resort of a Lizard. To move toward striking out so as to survive.
In my office, I don’t give lots of examples as I assume the couple has seen a lot of this.
In humans, fighting has frequently been retrained as the first resort of a person. If I strike out at you and you submit, then I get what I want and so I do it again. Fighting as a style is trained into people or retrained out depending on what others do.
Hi, Al,
thank you for your interesting thoughts. I think I may have understood from which perspective/place you are writing when you say that this stuff “helped you to dig yourself out”.
On the one hand, you have worked with hundreds of couples, when you still had your office. On the other hand, you always described yourself as someone trying new things when the old ones did not work for you (Mr Einstein also found this). Therefore, I suppose that your knowledge, or experiences, may also work for others, e.g. for me.
First of all, I’d like to tell you about a problem I have. Perhaps I have run into my old trap of “perfectionism” while studying your website and trying to get through all this good stuff (and to get it into my brain).
Let me explain: when I hit upon an amazing/interesting article, I follow each link which is new to me, and soon, I find myself in a muddle, not knowing what to follow first, and at the end of such a session (sometimes several hours), I’m a bit desperate, because I think I may have missed something important.
Moreover, it seems to me as if this were a mountain of knowledge I would never be able to work through. And for me, it is not sufficient to read the essays/articles (also some comments) only once. Often times it is useful to re-read them.
So, what can I do to avoid losing myself in this research (because I’m afraid I might miss something important)?
Secondly, your thoughts about parent-child relationships. I’m sad that I did not have this interesting piece of mind years ago, when all those awful fights with my daughter started:
You believe in being Friend/Friend with one’s child from age 8-12 on, whereas I always believed that children needed parents who gave them guidelines, not parents who were “friends”. Because they need someone who is reliable, who they can turn to in times of distress.
Okay, I think the latter is really important. Maybe what I was doing was giving “guidelines”that were orders in reality, or felt as orders.
You write let “them make their own decisions”. Theoretically, I would have agreed. But there is the rub. I didn’t trust her to be able to find the “right” decisions. Because being a parent and seeing that my child was running into something I considered as dumb/dangerous/unnecessary, was a real challenge for me. I wanted to spare her all that. Although the sad fact is, we (her father and me) were not able to help her avoid some very bitter experiences.
(By the way, I looked up who or what Rush Limbaugh is. Oh, Al, of course, I would not want to join him!
I think he has to take innumerable classes, maybe in the “University of Humanity/Understanding”?)
Furthermore, you advised mirroring. I’m still struggling with this concept, although I think I understand its purpose. Nevertheless, it’s not easy to grasp nor easy to put into practice. There is often little time, people (in this case my daughter) are getting impatient. And I’m rather awkward at that, or else, it sounds awkward. Do you advise to explain to your dialogue partner the idea behind this style of talking? I also think I understood that mirroring is only necessary when there is “real” talk, not about which pizza to choose, or when to meet downtown (although this might also lead to misunderstandings). Did I get it right?
The last point is Master/Slave talk. You told me never to teach my husband again. Well, okay. Instead you advised me to wrap my learnings into one-sentence-utterances. Very hard for someone who likes to lecture in academic details. But I like this very much: practical advice I can apply.
Thank you again, Al, and “Happy Easter”.
Margaret
Good learning, Margaret. I’ll just add a couple of thoughts. Mirroring. I’ve written lots of little pieces about this. They are all important to me. Here’s one. As I see that mirroring is a skill-teaching tool, it is something that you don’t need all the time. You need it for learning. “If you like it and enjoy it, you probably don’t need it. If it bothers you, it is surely trying to teach you some one of the skills you need.” I find it lots of fun to ponder, “How the heck will I mirror that?” This cheerful tone makes talking with the most difficult of people into an adventure of learning. I liken it to playing cards with someone and the delight in saying “new deal!” or “let’s play another hand.”
Dear Al,
thank you for your reply. I have several times read those passages about mirroring. Often, I discover that I missed something the first time or the second time around. I also did the 6 audio presentations, which were really wonderful, because the audio version is supported by visual means.
Now my problem: I would so much like to practice this in a dialogical situation with my husband, but he is not available. Moreover, he is about to leave for 2-3 months, to work on a different continent. How can I do mirroring? I’m not even sure what to write to him by email. Last year, when he was also absent for more than 6 months, I was so desperate that I wrote those lengthy emails I already mentioned to you (the analyses of various family and relationship aspects), which obviously drove him further away, he even literally wrote that in one of his replies. So no more of that (no lecturing any more!).
I know that he is stuck in a difficult situation with his work and I think, also with his life (which to me, might be called midlife crisis. Only thing is, some say there is not such a thing as an MLC).
So what remains to be done? Sending little one-sentence messages by email?
Thanks for a reply. Best wishes to you.
Margaret
A couple of thoughts, Margaret. Easiest way to learn good communication is from two parents who are great at communication. I didn’t get that, and you neither. Mirroring is a remedial tool to teach the hundreds of skills of “making ’em feel heard,” or listening. Because such learning is a bit clumsy, it’s easiest with a partner who understands what you are up to. Of course, you can learn those 100s of skills with strangers and kids and coworkers. Just not as easy. Can be done.
Getting your partner to help out often involves clearly communicating to them that you are determinedly moving more and more to be part of the solution in your relationship. When they believe that they’ll join in more easily.
I think Midlife Crisis is a much more common phenomenon than some think. The shift in a long term marriage sometimes looks like two MLCs at once. I think that is preferable to the single Midlife Crisis sometimes thought of.
My guess is that you need to display that you are building a big and better life for yourself which he may want to be ally’d to. Good luck.
Dear Al,
thank you so much for your reply. I hardly dared to hope that there would be one. So when I saw the posting, I was really excited and, what a coincidence that, at the weekend, you were just dealing with the lizard topic with “some wonderful couples”. I assume this was maybe a seminar? Besides, your words were the first ever uttered by anyone to assure me that we had not been a complete failure, even basically a good Imago match. This really affected me so deeply that tears were running down my face, it was like a relief, for the first time after my separation. It also feels as if a part of those bitter feelings that had been eating away at me have kind of “evaporated”.
Although I think that I have learned a lot since the separation, some things seem to be a bit clearer now.
Your letter was like a snowball rolling through my mind ever becoming larger, and on its way uncovering some truths I was not able to look at more closely or even perceive. It is as if they are being sort of highlighted by a flashlight. I think, your iceberg model helps a lot to understand this process: the line between things I am aware of and those hidden from consciousness has shifted.
For example, the Master/Slave issue. My husband came from a rather troubled childhood. No father, two brothers and a mother who can only be described as a bully, putting down, even thrashing her children. None of them stayed with her beyond the age of 14/15. (And I was the one to help her youngest son getting away – my husband (!), because he could no longer stand her treatment. He often called her “dangerous”, expressed his despair that she demanded total submission. There seemed to be nothing that could pacify her. I don’t want to judge her, I’m not in a place to do so, and – these are not my issues, only hers. But she drove anyone away, even those who wanted to help her.
Now, this is where Imago theory so wonderfully comes in: that unconsciously, we are choosing our partners, because we want to heal our childhood wounds, thereby unfailingly finding a match that reminds us of a former caretaker. And this is where I have begun to understand our relationship a bit more: I also must have shown a bit of “bully” behavior, although I never was aware of that. On the contrary, I silently had promised that no one should ever have a chance to hurt him again, to add to these awful childhood experiences.
At least, I’m sure, I must have used Mastertalk. And I must have missed an awful lot. As I see it today, a lot of resentments must have built up behind my husband’s seemingly compliant behavior. I, too, was not able to read the clues he gave me. I closed my mind to them, I think a was terribly afraid of what would come. “You think you are always right? Go ask your best friend what she thinks”. And I was surprised! Me a know-it-all/know-it-better? No way! On the contrary, in the last years of our being together, I never revealed what I really thought, I thought the best way to deal with differences was to agree – on the surface, at least, and I must have been resigning more and more, because I saw no solution. I could not talk about myself, about my feelings, all bottled up, but he was the same.
It was also the time when, looking back, we must often have switched roles: me into Slave position, he Passive Master. On the day he left me, there was a last talk. He asked me if I had any idea who he was. “You don’t know me, do you?” Al, that’s what you called “woefully uninformed about him.”He asked me what my aspirations were, what I wanted in life. I was silent, I had no answer. So he also had no data. He then told me that for him, I was someone who had built high, solid walls around him, literally: “I could have thrown a bomb, it wouldn’t have penetrated the walls”. Today I know that this was a depression, I was enclosed in some place inside me, not to be reached from the outside. Looking back I can only say that I wanted to be the most wonderful wife, the best and most understanding mother and 100% good at my job. And trying to reach the impossible, I lost myself – and my husband. He gave me more clues – after he went away. “Concerning our relationship, we nearly made it. You know, I never give up – but I was drained, exhausted.”
(I don’t know if he would repeat that today, maybe not.)
He also said that he had more than enough of the long years of fightings between my daughter and me.
How true are those words:”You can either be right OR have a relationship”, or “All people are disobedient – always.” That’s one of the things I’m learning late in my life, with your help, Al. I’m trying to behave differently, and it’s so hard. My daughter (now an adult) and I, we are still always triggering each other (for 9 years now). Also, because at the back of my mind, there is always this “she is your daughter, you are the mother, she mustn’t “win” the argument? I didn’t realize that when there is a winner, there is always a loser, too. But I didn’t want being Friend/Friend with her, she is my daughter, she has to “obey” (Ouch!).
I’m trying hard to change this. I told her about your website, that I’m tired of eternally arguing with her. Besides, she is better than me at fighting, at playing this awful ping-pong of throwing arguments at each other. I must shamefully admit that when she says she had the “best teacher” that this is not beside the point. (But I never did this ping-pong “game” with my husband, I don’t think so.)
By the way, I have learnt a lot from your audio recording about rules and the controller issue I seem to have. I discovered this recording on your website just a week ago! My husband always called me a controller. Maybe my problem, but also a projection on his part coming from his childhood issues. What was totally new to me was that controllers (“most people are controllers, more or less” )get into panic, are stressed, when they see that their rules are not followed. They are trying to get some peace of mind, as you say.
A lot to learn there, but also a chance to accept/forgive myself.
May I, please, ask you if you think that I should explain the lizard model and its implications to my husband? Or is this again Mastertalk, like lecturing to him (and provoking resistance)?
Now I hope that I have not overloaded you. Maybe yes, so I apologize for this lengthy piece of text. And I want to express my gratitude for all the wisdom you spread. I think I can practice the skills of Master/Slave with my daughter learning to act Friend/Friend. What is really tricky, I assume, is the Clinger/Avoider issue. I don’t see yet how I can overcome those feelings of resignation and at the same time impatience, the urge to act, to “do” something. I feel I really have to learn lots of patience, Al. Thank you again and the best for you for all the good work you are doing.
Margaret
Hello Margaret, I think you have learned enough concepts for maybe 4 years
of practicing the skills. Wow. I congratulate you. (Remember that my stuff was/is
written to help me dig myself out of the confusion I was raised in, lived
in, was/am surrounded by. And it worked.) Go for it. Here’s a couple of
thoughts.
A clue to the future is your “perfectionism”. Just set before you the
correct/functional rules.
E.g. if my daughter is not disagreeing, something is wrong. Reward her.
If she thinks of disobeying me, I want to complement her.
If we are arguing, even just the first word of an argument shows me we are
not in Friend-Friend. Friends never argue – tho by habit the first phrases
may pop out.
Daughter becomes Friend-Friend somewhere between age 8 and 12. After that,
she should be paid respect for making her own decisions and thinking her
own thoughts. It’s about helping a kid grow up. If you are talking to
someone over 12 and telling them to obey, ….that way is the way of
bullies, I believe. Join Rush Limbaugh, Ow.
I don’t find Master-Slave is not just in the ping – pong game. I see it in
the MasterTalk – either active or passive. That’s the step before the
ping-pong. His compliance was deadly.
Learn Mirroring as the preferable way to deal with MasterTalk. Become an expert.
Don’t teach you husband ever again. You will never be in that position
again. But you can share your learnings – very briefly. Learn to describe
Master-Slave in many one sentence classes, when he asks. Learn to practice
your learnings. “Hmm. I said the word “right”, didn’t I. Let me rephrase
that. I believe this is right. I have no idea what other’s believe.”
Keep a going.
Dear Al,
just today wie had one of those rare phone calls. I called because I had tried to make a break, not bothering him with emails for about 3 weeks. So I wanted to connect a bit and called. And really, he picked up the phone though he was working ( self-employed, often no weekends). We were chatting for 50 minutes. Not about us. About friends, a plane crash, my job. He asked me questions about my job. And we talked about our daughter. Just when the conversation was about to be “thinning”, he said that he had to get back to his work. I was just able to ask him whether he could not find some time to arrange a meeting next weekend or later when he said he would be abroad on a great tour for 2-3 months. I am so sad, because this is like it has been going for the last 2-3 years, also before our separation, when he was away for half a year. You can’t imagine the misunderstandings because of being so far from each other, mostly in different time zones. How can I visibly work on improving things if he is not there? All that stuff I learned. I was even in therapy for 3 months because of a breakdown. I have practiced non-violent communication (M. Rosenberg), active listening with people in my everyday life. I’m trying to be a “better” being, not imposing myself and my convictions on others, but trying to learn. I now know it will be an effort for the rest of my life. But my greatest suffering is my absent husband, the loss of his companionship, now already for such a long time. Is there any chance after such a long separation?
At the end of the call, he seemed to be in a hurry and mumbled something like, bye now until next time. That’s it.
Thank you for reading my posts.
Dear Al,
I made a mistake: I did NOT notice that I was hurting him. Sorry!
Dear Al,
I have been reading your site for a very long time (2 1/2 years) and found a lot of comfort in your articles, also lots of insight in human behavior. Mainly the concept of the lizard is something everybody should know about because it accounts for a lot of reactions. I myself always wondered why in critical situations I had the urge to at least shuffle my feet, but often I had to leave the room, breathing hard, any useful thinking blocked, just pure panick. I certainly did not see the lizard in my husband or daughter’s reactions. How could I? Today I think I am more prepared to deal with my lizard/ other people’s lizard.
After long reflections I have decided to present to you my situation: I am in my sixties and my much younger husband left me after 25 years of marriage giving several reasons. He said he never loved me, what we had was no relationship at all, he had never had a place at my side, he was as little as a dwarf beside me, if he had not left me he would have been reduced to zero. It was a pure question of survival. He told me that I had hurt him so much that it was sufficient for a lifetime ( I did notice that). This was nearly three years ago.
I know we had a lot of fights, mostly concerning our daughter and finances. I was so helpless, he too, but I had no solution for all this. In the first 18 months I sent numerous very long emails giving lectures (after reading lots of books and literally hundreds of articles on relationships and human behavior). At first he wrote back that it was all too much, too lengthy, that he had to work too hard to get rid of his large debts. When he wrote back he explained that never, ever would he come back, and that I would drive him further and further away.
I think I overwhelmed him with my analysis of his/ our family history. I thought I could convince him to look at his own behavior and end the blame game ( in which I was the guilty party).
We still have some slight contact, only when I I initiate it. He works around the clock, mainly abroad. I have asked him for a meeting, I saw him only 3 times ever since the separation. He is moving further and further away, he even told me that I should not touch him. At our first meeting he kissed my cheek, now this! It is very rare that I call him on the phone.
When he is available, he chats with me, we exchange news, he even gives some advice concerning my job, for example. But a meeting? No time, hard work, tries to survive. He has contact to our daughter, even a lot, though not personally, because he is never at home. By the way, he has not moved very far away, though not just round the corner.
What can I do to get him to talk in person? Or not talk, just meet? Is it advisable to explain that lizard model to him? His childhood patterns (awful childhood, lots of pain)? What should I reveal of my knowledge? Maybe this might be seen as lecturing/ master talk?
We are still not formally divorced because I would suffer great financial losses due to our system of post marital regulation.
Dear Al, thank you so much for all the wisdom you have shared. I wish you a very long life with your beloved wife, Sandra.
Hello Margaret, It could seem to you as if I ignored your posting. I did put off answering, and reading it. I had a full weekend with some wonderful couples and amazingly we spent most of the time pondering Lizards. It was, for me, a lot of fun. Gosh, I like tangling with people (like you) who are trying to do better in their relationships.
In reply I’m going to talk a bit to you and also to the other people who read this website. There are a bunch. I bet many of them have ideas they could share. This is how I approach this situation.
First of all, I believe that people are good and are trying their best. So I start reading you Margaret and hold firm to the idea your man is good, you are good, both of you are making sense doing what you’ve done and what you are doing.
Been married 25 years – I think to include time that you were falling for each other and the two years you’ve been separated and I’m thinking ’bout 28 years or more. That’s plenty of time to get into lots of pretty painful habits and to want to get out. Figure Romantic Love for 2-3 years, Power Struggle for 3 years or so and that means about 22 years in Door #2. This is just a way of guessing about you two, using my Map of Relationship. Twenty-two years of full frontal Lizard action on both parts. This then assumes a lot of Imago Match that keeps you together and an awful lot of Fleeing, Freezing, Submitting and Fighting. Ok. Good people, lots of them, do this. Painful but staggeringly normal.
But two years ago, somehow, this horrible pattern broke up somehow. That something put you both back at the Choice Point. But at least you were out of Door #2. My wife now calls that the Shark Tank. Good to get out of it. Of course you both have now a long history of painful, scary stuff, and an amazing Imago commitment toward each other.
Now your partner has wandered off in the direction of the Divorce Door (#3). Because he, at one time, went into Door #2, he carries the past (maybe current) belief that you are hopeless as a partner to achieve Vintage Love with. He’s wrong, I believe, but that was/is almost surely his belief. My guess, based on what you’ve said, his “reasons” for leaving, that it took him quite a time to arrive at that belief. And it is thus based on a lot of “tryings to make things better” which you may not have noticed. So he is stubbornly out there, not likely to fall for what he thinks are shallow promises. Nope, he’s serious. Good for him. He ain’t going back into Door #2 and he really doesn’t believe you will head for Door #1, so he is trying to survive. This was a clue you gave me. His talking about survival I just see as normal Lizard chatter, “Oh oh, I’m gonna die is I don’t get away.” “You’re killing me..” etc. Normal stuff.
He’s a nice guy out there waiting for some signs that you are “really” gonna change your ways and move toward Door #1. And really wants you to, cuz he loves you. I believe that. Before I switch focus to you, I just want to add that he may think for a bit that it is all your problem, but he’s got 50% responsibility for this mess. Later he can understand this and begin to pick up his responsibility. By later I mean 6 months or longer.
(By the way, I don’t think the difference in ages means anything significant at this point.)
So can this relationship be recovered? No, hell no. And thank God. No one would want that mess that you two lived, so let’s not even think of going back or recovering it. Let’s look at that past, that time when you both were doing your best and that best was often pretty terrible, and start to extract the terrible and replace it with progress toward Vintage Love. And let’s protect and keep the wonderful parts of the past. Can this couple get into Vintage Love? Absolutely, definitely, if they both do the “right things,” the skills that lead to Vintage Love.
(For those of you who are reading this, you know as much as I do. Putting my ideas out in front of Margaret allows her to reflect and help correct my misunderstandings or poor guesses. My guesses are based on what I read. I’m laying out my guesses in front of Margaret, cuz she has millions of times as much data as I do. Of course she doesn’t have what I have learned about relationships and people, though she’s read a lot of my writings. She’s probably got a lot about her partner (much more than I do) but she’s probably woefully uninformed about him. (This is utterly common for couples at the Choice Point.)
Now let me turn to what you can do, Margaret, and to my guesses about your 50% of the situation. At this point I see two areas of trouble where a lot of good new skills can be learned and old skills gotten-rid-of.
The old Clinger Avoider problem. The goal is to get your partner, who’s currently pulling away, to stop and turn around. My guess is that you can do this if you learn lots of patience whenever he starts to pull away from you or anyone and with that tone of patience assist him to have quiet time. Assume that whenever he gets overloaded he needs quiet time in “his cage” and you help him get it – always. He’ll come out to you as long as he goes there with your help and not if he goes there to get away from you.
The other is the whole Master/Slave control stuff. Eschew being Master or Slave or Passive Master and firmly adopt Friend/Friend. Act Friend/Friend especially when he doesn’t but in general. I hope my writings help you do this. He has to believe that you are there to be his buddy – never his boss, competitor, or his slave
Move stubbornly in these two directions, I recommend. I think you can do it. You didn’t get to this wonderful age without learning toughness and perseverance. Just persevere in learning and lead the way.
Now, go for it.